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Waiting on 802D3 to arrive -- Will I need a sub?

It's a rainy gray Sunday afternoon here in Atlanta today. I probably have better things to do but I've spent hours reading and researching trying to ascertain if I will need a subwoofer(s) once my B&W 802D3 arrive here in another week or so.

I can't decide and so I've decided to try posting here and crowdsource an answer, ha ha!

My goal is to create a system that will allow me to listen to 2-channel music for hours on end without fatigue.  The room is my living room and is a quasi open floorplan. It is around 24 feet long by 18 feet wide.  There are 10ft ceilings with an open stairwell back behind the seating position and an opening to my dining room that adds another 400 square feet or so of floor space.

Previously I've had B&W 804D2 towers with two B&W ASWCM10 powered subs.  I've sold the towers and the subs and am waiting on 802D3 to arrive as mentioned above.  The 804D2 absolutely had to have the subs.  The bass just wasn't there without them unless I really cranked the volume up.

So as I sit here I'm wondering if I made a mistake in selling my subs already.  With the 802's will I miss them or will those guys have me covered for 2 channel listening?

If it's likely that I will still need a sub (or 2) what do you guys think would be a good match to the 802D3?

Here is the rest of my equipment in case its helpful in offering an opinion:

Preamp:

·     PS Audio BHK Signature Preamplifier

Amplifiers:

·     Qty. 2: PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblocks

Inputs:

·     PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DAC)

·     VPI Traveler 2

·     Audio Technica AT33EV Phonograph Cartridge

·     Apple TV 4K 

Power:

·     Qty. 2: PS Audio P5 Power Plant

 Other:

·     Pro-Ject Tube Box S Phono PreAmplifier

 Speakers:

·     Bowers-Wilkins 802D3


Thanks!
Bryce
brycethomason
auxinput
2,920 posts
 

I just came into this conversation and would like to make a comment.  I would highly caution against many statements that say the XA60.8 will not be enough to power the 802 D3 speakers.  The XA amplifier is a full Class A amp, which means it is biasing the output stage to push a constant 60 watts at all times, even if the speaker is not using it (the un-used power in a Class A ends up being heat generated by the transistor through the heat-sink. 

Many conventional Class AB amps will be biased into Class A for a very small amount - typically anywhere from 1 watt to 8-10 watts.  (Sometimes it can be biased as high as 20-30 watts).  However, it will never require as much A/C power as a 60 Watt Class A monoblock.  The power supply has to be significantly over built on a  Class A amp to be able to provide 60 watts of current without any drop in voltage.

On a conventional Class AB amp. the amplifier will draw a constant amount based on it's Class A bias (1 watt to 8 watts).  Music transients can push into the 200-400 watt area for less than a second, but then the 60hz A/C voltage is still enough to bring the voltage back up in the power supply capacitor bank.  It's a completely different requirement.

If you look at the weight of the XA60.8 monoblock, it is 88 lbs, which is a very large monoblock amplifier.  The Parasound JC1 is only 64 lbs, but it will output 400 watts and this is easily able to drive the 802 D3.

If you compare weight (which really is a representation of transformer weight and heatsink), the weight of the XA60.8 Class A amplifier equals the weight of the X260.8 monoblock amplifier exactly (both are exactly 88 lbs).

If you look at the common weight of a 100 watt amplifier, you will find that the weight is typically something like 20-40lbs per channel.  I would say that a 100 watt amp may have problems driving the 802 D3.   However, something like the XA60.8 would theoretically have no problems because of its significantly large power supply.

If someone here has actually driven a set of B&W 802 speakers with a Pass XA60 amplifier, please comment on your opinions for the ability to drive the speakers.  For all others who are speaking mostly from Class AB points-of-view, please hold your comments unless you have experience with a full Class A amplifier.

In my own theory, I don't think the XA60 will have any problem at all driving the 802 D3 speakers.

auxinput
2,920 posts
 

Just a quick follow up.  Both the 804D2 and the 802D3 are 8 ohm speakers with a minimum impedance of 3 ohms.  Both are 90db efficient.  In my opinion, you will have absolutely no problem driving either speaker with the XA60.8 if you are listening in the 0-60 watts area.

The problem arises if you want to play the speakers so loud that you require more than 60 watts.  In this situation, the XA60 will run out of gas because the power supply is only able to push the 60 "constant" watts required for Class A operation.  If you tend to turn up the volume very loud, you might find that you want a higher power amplifier.

brycethomason OP
18 posts
 
@auxinput, you and several others who told me not to worry were absolutely right in regards to the Pass Labs amp power. These XA60.8 monoblocks have no problem at all driving the B&W 802D3's. There is MORE than enough power to drive them. I've found that I've been sitting with the volume around 45-50 (out of 100) on the preamp for my listening sessions so far. If I get the volume above 65-70 then it's really too loud to listen to for any length of time. 75+ is enough to get the cops called on me, ha! 

For the first few hours after getting the 802's, I kept the dual B&W ascm10s subs in the room using the highlevel inputs. I would listen to music with them on and with them off.  I tweaked and played with the levels, phase, extension, etc.. but I didn't feel that those particular subs added anything at all to the sound.  The 802's frequency response is just as low as that of the subs, but I thought that it might help with pressurizing the room or giving some extra oomph to the low bass.  I just didn't pick that up at all with my ears and thus removed the subs (and quickly sold here on Audiogon).

These 802's have no problem handling musical bass in my space. They hit low enough to shake the room when I ask them to. In running bass sweeps, my neighbor (and best friend) who was inside his kitchen texted me saying that he could tell I was enjoying the new speakers. 

That all said.. I do also use the space for some television and movie watching (maybe 30%) and am currently somewhat infatuated with the Dolby vision content on my LG OLED also in the room.  For movie watching, I am thinking about adding in an ultralow sub (maybe a B&W DB2D or a Funk Audio 21.0L) just for home theater but I'm pretty certain that no sub would ever be warranted in this space for discerning music listening. I'm always experimenting though so of course I would test that out, ha.

Again.. let me say I have enjoyed all the feedback from the community here.  This thread ended up making the popular conversations section!  I'm kinda proud, lol.  Thank you to everyone who gave me advice and contributed to this great discussion.  

Ps.  I ended up with a different preamp.  The PS Audio that I thought I was going to integrate ended up being on backorder. So after much research, I decided to go with a Mcintosh C1100.  I couldn't be happier.  It's a beauty and enhances the sound of my system.  I tested going directly from the DAC into the amps and then putting the McIntosh between them and love what the C1100 adds to the overall sound.

Pss.  I'm going to post some photos for you guys to show how things turned out in my next post.
bluesy41
211 posts
 
@brycethomason 

I’m happy for you! Enjoy your system sir.

Cheers
brycethomason OP
18 posts
 
Thanks bluesy41

and @joey_v -> as promised :)

Here is a photo of how it all turned out:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9k440vblmme900/brycethomason.jpg

Final (I think) equipment list:

Preamp:
McIntosh C1100

Amplifiers:
PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblock L
PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblock R

Speakers:
Bowers-Wilkins 802D3 L
Bowers-Wilkins 802D3 R

Inputs:
PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DAC)
Apple TV 4K
VPI Traveler 2
Audio Technica AT33EV Phonograph Cartridge

Power:
PS Audio P5 Power Plant L
PS Audio P5 Power Plant R

Television:
LG Oled 65" 4K - OLED65B7A

Connects:
Hero 1.5 Meter Copper Analog Interconnect: Balanced Pair (Preamps to Amps)
Hero 1.5 Meter Copper Analog Interconnect: Balanced Pair (DAC to Preamp)
Bluejeans Cable? (Turntable to Preamp)
Audioquest Cinnamon 3M Optilink (Television to DAC)
AudioQuest Vodka HDMI 2M (AppleTV to Television)
Audioquest 6’ Rocket 33 (Amps to Speakers)

Pwr Cables:
Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1.5M (Outlet to P5 regenerator L)
Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1.5M (Outlet to P5 regenerator R)
Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1M (P5 regenerator L to Amp L)
Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1M (P5 regenerator R to Amp R)
Pangea Audio 14SE MKII .6M (P5 regenerator L to DAC)
Pangea Audio 14SE MKII .6M (P5 regenerator R to Preamp)

Other:
AC Infinity Aircom S8 17" quiet cooling fan L
AC Infinity Aircom S8 17" quiet cooling fan R
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