Why Isnt Techincs 1200 Considered Audiophile?

@has2be

Audiomods was designed for MC cartridges, you can not change effective mass of this tonearm without detachable headshell, so there are some limitations. For MC users it’s fine, but there is another new tonearm on the market available in "12 or "9 inch with two different counterweight and detachable headshell for very reasonable price with top quality bearings. This is Thomas Schick tonearm made in Germany, few year ago the price was about 1200 euro for "12 inch! The most ellegant tonearm on the market, you can ignore how the product "looks like" if it’s not important for you, for me it’s important as much as the quality. This is my Schick "12 on SP-10mkII. It was nice tonearm for low compliance cartridges like SPU and Denon (it was designed for them), but for all my MM cartridges and for some LOMC like ZYX i prefered Technics EPA-100 on the same turntable.

If you will check the specs of Technics EPA-100 you will find out why Matsushita tonearms are better. Don’t forget its unique counterweight designed to use cartridge of different compliance, except heavy ones. But even for heavy once there is a ring weight as an option.

Now i have EPA-100mkII tonearm with armwand made of Boron Titanium. It’s a different price category. Try to find anything like that from the DIYers like Audiomods. That’s why the research and access to a better materials was important for Japanese gians like Matsushita. It’s impossible to imagine that someone at his garage like Thomas Schick or Jeff Audiomods will get the access to Boron Titanium or something like that for a small quantity of tonearms they are making. I don’t think those DIYers can compete with Micro Seiki, Technics, Sony, Audio Craft or any other big manufacturers from the 70s/80s. And those arms from the big manufacturers are in the same price (today) or very close to the small manufacturers like Audiomods, Schick etc.

Everyone is free to make a choice.

@vinny55 and all

 An old Technics SL1210/1200 mkII, mk3D, mk4, mk5 or SL1200 LTD Gold are not an audiophile turntables, they are HI-FI turntables, each of them can be improved by the user.

The ONLY Technics audiophile turntables (all in one) are SL1000mkII or SL1000mkIII if we’re talking about classics here.

SP-10mkII, SP-10mkIII drives are audiophile quality
EPA-100, 250, 500, EPA-100mkII are audiophile tonearms
EPC-100c mk4, mk3 or EPC-205c mk4... (or p-mount, or universal versions) are audiophile cartridges
Obsidian plinth made onyl for audiophile tunrtables

As you can see the ultimate Technics products sells separately, so the audiophile can buy what he need (drive, tonearm, cartridge).

The all in one turntables are not audiophile, they are hi-fi for much lower price, no matter which model.

I’m not talking about newly released technics turntables here, i’ve never tried them. 
Brand new Technics reference turntables can be discussed in my thread:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/upcoming-technics-sp-10r-100th-anniversary-model  

Jeff at Audiomods is a professional machinist, hardly what I would call DIY. I would guess he could get his hands on some Boron Titanium if he so desired. I actually like products made one at a time by an artisan like Jeff. Roger Modjeski of Music Reference personally makes each of his amplifiers one at a time on a workbench, yet is still able to sell them for less than many assembly line products offered by larger high end companies. It’s a matter of good design and engineering (an amp exhibiting marginal stability costs just as much to manufacture as one that is unconditionally stable), and knowing where to spend the money to reap the greatest sonic benefit. Roger installs transformers of his own design in his amps, not ones he buys off the shelf like most amp makers. If you pay him extra, he'll even personally hand-wind the transformers he puts in the amp he makes you.

What makes a turntable "audiophile" and what makes it "hi-fi"? Is there any tangible, or maybe measurable, thing we should be looking/listening for? Some specification, feature, etc. I am not trying to argue, but the question came to me after reading the statement about "audiophile" and "hi-fi". Could it happen that "audiophile" of 1978 is merely "hi-fi" in 2018? Should it be judged on its merit for the time it was produced? I am sure that early SL 1200 does not fare that great when compared to current designs, but was it, at least, somewhat "audiophile" when it came out leaving SP 10 and similar ones to be "ultra high-end" or something like that?

In the end, they are all just machines trying to reproduce heavily modified and altered sound, frequently even electrically produced in the studio (think syntheseisers, electric guitars). Who knows what sound did Kraftwerk program their electronics to make in 1970s and here I am, buying yet another version of The Man Machine and different cartridge to make it sound "better".

In fact, what does the definition "audiophile" mean altogether? Maybe this is not the best website to ask that question.

I think this IS the best place to ask that question, particularly because, in this context, it is the ideal example of what that overused and abused word means. So, I'm here to defend Technics DD tables. I have owned/own, "high end" VPI, Rega and Thorens tables and now have two SL1200IIs and the new SL1200GR. Do they compete sonically with the others listed above. Yes. Do they "sound better?" Maybe, maybe not. What I do like is their build quality and very low noise without those awful, wearable belts. And "cogging problems" are a myth perpetuated by jealous belt drive enthusiasts. Yes, my Aries 2 sounds great with a Lyra Delos, but it does not provide the drive and dynamics of the 1200s with a Nagaoka MP200, Grado Sonata, Ortofon Black, Stanton 881S or Pickering XSV 3000 or 4000. I know because I own all of these carts and run them through a Manley Steelhead preamp. The arms on these are fine and well engineered. They may not be SME IVs or Vs but they have excellent bearings and I find no untoward resonances from them.

DJs adopted these tables because they are so well built. They were not originally designed for DJing. The slider speed control is on there because, with a quartz controlled DD, you can do that! It was for musicians who didn't want to have to retune their instruments in order to play to recordings. Now that's innovation and convenience. From my point of view, it's sheer genius. So let's stop dragging 1200s down and what everyone knows is the most robust, bang for the buck TT on the planet, ever. Oh yeah, those drive systems are what are used to power the cutting lathes! Nuff said.
Steve

I think when you could buy the SL1200 MKII in 2009 for $399, (straight from the factory in Osaka Japan) it may have been one of the all time best deals in audio