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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Jafant, thanks!! Good to see you as well.

My Vegas Strip location (where I’ve set up my writing room) has two suites. One upstairs apartment and one down stairs. There’s a system in the writing room and than the main listening area. The downstairs apartment has my wood curing area and a listening room. There’s also a gaming room in yet another space. Last year I had everything in one space with 6 listening rooms, but I felt too far away from the strip and airport. You can see everything on TuneLand but to give a breakdown of this space. The main listening area has a SAM wall behind the chair. On the back side of the wall is where I keep a big part of my equipment stored. That area has several tuning platform/shelves. On those shelves is Audio Note, Audolici, Music Hall, Creek, Magnavox, Pioneer, Sherwood, Kenwood, Superphon, Marantz, Jolida, Luxman, Rotel and more. I tune lots of equipment during the year so it comes and goes. Last year for example I had in Bricasti, Accuphase, Audio Research, Krell and again a few other brands to work on. Speakers, of course I have the Rev6, Rev60, Rev SW-15. And than my other speakers (less talked about) Viola, LOW, the 8" full range and others of mine. I also have the Reference Tonian, JBL and 4 or so other brands. I have a few other DACs, decks and tuners.

I have my cables Picasso and Bare Essence. I also have Transparent Audio, Esoteric and a couple others floating around somewhere. Oh and can’t forget the Bare Essence "White". I have all of my other goodies as well.

The main listening system has the Rev6 Combo setup with Picasso Type2 ICs and Type4 Bare Essence "White". I have a full display of my hand voiced Platforms & Rails using Brazilian Pine and Low Tone Redwood, LTR Tuning Blocks, MGA Sub amp & SW-15 sub, BP Cable Grounds. SAM and PZC acoustics, and a couple of RoomTune Squares. I’m also using my Mini Wall Tuning Blocks (Pretty cool little guys), Space Cones, MTD’s. So as you can tell my system is mainly a variable musical instrument.

what about the equipment?

Well because my system is a tuning tool I can put in an amplifier, my trusty Magnavox players and I’m off to the races. For the sake of the other thread I’m doing here, I’ve bought several amps so I can do the tune from scratch using basic electronics. 3 days ago I got in another Pioneer sx-3400 and popped it into the system. BTW for my reference tube gear I use Audolici from Portugal. The A25M is the MG Version. I also have the AVP-01 and AP-01 preamps.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

trelja
3,224 posts
 
@mapman "Take it from one with much experience. Don’t bother responding to Geoffkait if you want to actually get anywhere. Everything is a joke to him. He is like the pied piper of Audiogon. You will get nowhere with him. He might humor you from time to time if he feels cornered but that’s about it. He is clever like a fox though. He will gladly take your money should you decide to try one of his comical useless products. The ultimate troll! He should write a book. All talk, no walk."

This guy has punked you for years now. You’re both pretty local to each other...any reason you don’t show up at CAF, stick your finger in his face, and reset the relationship?
lilmsmaggie
273 posts
 
"No, the fact is there is a sameness that a stock car audio system impacts on all recordings so they all sound decent. "

Hmm, could it be because when listening to music in our automobiles, we are "near field" listening.    Sound is being directed directly at the left and right sides of our heads, not so much reflected.  In your car, you're physically sitting between the speakers, which is gonna make up for poor acoustics. 

At home in our listening rooms, we don't sit between the speakers the same way we sit between our car's speaker but between and in front of the speakers within the room and the sound is being reflected.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,520 posts
 
Trelja,

It was very touching  how gk pined for me when I was not posting for awhile.   He can't be all bad.  
glupson
7,842 posts
 
folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves.

Michael Green

I just read this whole thread, but have failed to figure out what it was all about, except for moderately angry arguments at times aimed at another person coming from a few sides. Michael Green, could you give a few examples what those guys talking are talking without doing actual empirical testing themselves? There may be one mention of such a situation in the beginning of the thread, but even there I could not find out how you ("any of us") can have absolutely no doubt about what someone, who you only know through few words on the Internet, has or has not done without a person explicitly saying it. Could you describe what they talk and how you figure them out?


As far as crappy recordings go, they do exist. Some may be more bearable on some equipment and some may not, but crappiness exists in this world. I know that many people who prefer to consider themselves "audiophiles" enjoy endless tweaks to get the right sound from each and every recording with whatever scientific or empirical excuse/explanation there is. It may be great for them, giving them more enjoyment. However, if most of the things sound decent on some equipment, and a few sound crappy, I would be suspicious. If the recording cannot be played reasonably well on a decent equipment, I would consider recording at least imperfect.

grannyring and tjbhuler,

I thought the same for the longest time and then I was subjected to "premium" Fender sound system in 2016 Volkswagen. Now I know that it is possible to have a system in the car that can make any recording sound not good. As I like to describe it, it makes your favorite orchestra sound like a garage band. I tried what I could with tone and fader controls, but even the Michael Green's magic adjustments would not help. I am not making fun of them, that is simply how they seem to me and I am in awe. Regarding that awe, I am just talking and not walking. I have never heard Michael Green's stuff.
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