Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
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Good afternoon Agon Hope you folks got in some fun listening last night. The last couple of days I’ve been in Phil Keaggy land and love it. It’s exciting to hear an artist grow from their early message on through the years as they mature musically and their views. Phil is a rock and knows how to rock both. Visiting one of his guitar makers years ago was a joy for me, and being with Phil in person is a treat. After I got some work done today I came back to Prof’s posts and read through my OP again. I must admit I got no further along in answering Prof than I did before. The OP to me and others is crystal clear. Picking it apart and trying to read my attitude or hidden message to be decoded, simply would have to be in the hands of the individual interpreter. I don’t want to start trying to bend the post, or any of my posts, into meaning beyond what they are. I’m glad that TJ visited us again because he is a great example of what it is like beginning in the tune and working his way through becoming the master of his own system through using the tune. Following that up with Elizabeth’s post is perfect for this thread. Fact is, if you are sitting there with a stock system in a living room and nothing else, there is another level to your hobby if you wish to take a hold of it. Talking your way around why your not going to take a step is the opposite from ultimate listening practices. It’s not meant to be a slam on anyone, but an invitation into a more profound hobby. People are going to say "I'm happy where I am" and we say "good". We're not unhappy for you that you have found a great place in your hobby, that would silly. At the same time that's a choice. Can you go further if you choose" absolutely. There is a division in this hobby and it’s not one that is meant to be dividing with malice, condensation, discrediting or marginalizing of anyone. The division is made by all of us as individuals, it’s a choice. Do I take that next step in componentry or do I look for a method that pulls my whole hobby together? It’s not about WAF or any other reasons why not to, it’s about taking a look at what listening is beyond the articles, ads and peer pressure. The method of tuning is about first setting your system free and second tuning it back in to your level of listening. What I’m preaching about is a simple message, the entire recording is there available for us to discover. Our choice to go after it or not is that division and if you look at these pages you will see folks living out that division in real time. It’s not a division between one person and the next unless we make it one. Nope the division is within us, do I stay where I am at or do I go beyond flaceplates, money and my personal reasons why not to. The OP is no slam, it’s a door. Some have opened this door, some are standing at the door, and others refuse to believe there is even a door there. So it’s not about (and never was) one person claiming themselves better than anyone else. The Tune is about exploring what signal really is by doing and not talking about why we are not doing, or only doing in part. It’s not judging you as a person or your intelligence. It’s a step that you either want to explore or you don’t. Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
Michael - First, you are correct that TJ is vastly more articulate than you are. He also doesn’t make insulting assumptions about anyone who disagrees with him. I have many years of experience in acoustics and ’room tuning’, using many techniques... including some similar to yours. I have to agree with Prof that you have been purposely vague here, and mostly off-topic. I’m no troll & not interested in a debate; Just going to state a few things I believe, and then I’ll go away... 1. In general, all recordings sound better on a better system than they do on a lesser one. 2. All recording also sound better in a better acoustic environment. 3. There is no system or room that will make a poor recording sound as good as a better one. 4. While measurements are instructive, what you hear is always more important than what you measure. There are excellent sounding products that do not measure well (Maggies for example), and I have yet to hear a speaker which measures ’flat’ and still sounds decent. Lastly, I’m sorry to have to say it, but... you’re really here to sell, aren’t you? Telling people that you can make even the shittiest recordings sound as wonderful as the best (because everyone, even those with great systems & great rooms, has recordings they love and WISH sounded better) is simply dishonest. You’re probably a good guy, and what you do probably has great benefits, especially for those who have not addressed room acoustics. But you insult us by claiming the ridiculous and pooh-poohing anyone who questions you. Maybe it’s just a communication problem... |
michaelgreenaudio OP Hi Geoff Thanks for the update. I know you were working with several different players, even cassettes. Are those still in use? I thought it very interesting when you went from the HEA setup to the low mass Walkmans. You know it’s weird I think that so many folks pick on the portable units being sold, and when talking to them I discover they have never really listened to the modern portables. This whole low mass thing really throws HEA audiophiles off for some reason. Around show time CES here I try to make it to some portable demos. Technology is something else. >>>>I still use Sony Cassette Players, too. I reckon my portables have gotta be ten or fifteen years old, at least. Sony’s just sound good. The other portables, Panasonic, Philips, Aiwa, and the multitude of secondary brands sound a little off. I have listed before all the technical reasons why I think portables sound so good, you know, like no house AC, no AC ground, no transformers, no interconnects, no power cords, no room acoustic anomalies, no big honking capacitors, no fuses. No more teacher’s dirty looks. Secondary benefits of low mass portable systems include freeing up of a lot of real estate and cost savings, obviously. Plus they’re easier to isolate. You could call it a low-mass system (10 ounces) on a high-mass iso stand (60 pounds). If thy nose offend thee cut it off. |
