Talk but not walk?

Good afternoon Agon

Hope you folks got in some fun listening last night. The last couple of days I’ve been in Phil Keaggy land and love it. It’s exciting to hear an artist grow from their early message on through the years as they mature musically and their views. Phil is a rock and knows how to rock both. Visiting one of his guitar makers years ago was a joy for me, and being with Phil in person is a treat.

After I got some work done today I came back to Prof’s posts and read through my OP again. I must admit I got no further along in answering Prof than I did before. The OP to me and others is crystal clear. Picking it apart and trying to read my attitude or hidden message to be decoded, simply would have to be in the hands of the individual interpreter. I don’t want to start trying to bend the post, or any of my posts, into meaning beyond what they are.

I’m glad that TJ visited us again because he is a great example of what it is like beginning in the tune and working his way through becoming the master of his own system through using the tune. Following that up with Elizabeth’s post is perfect for this thread.

Fact is, if you are sitting there with a stock system in a living room and nothing else, there is another level to your hobby if you wish to take a hold of it. Talking your way around why your not going to take a step is the opposite from ultimate listening practices. It’s not meant to be a slam on anyone, but an invitation into a more profound hobby. People are going to say "I'm happy where I am" and we say "good". We're not unhappy for you that you have found a great place in your hobby, that would silly. At the same time that's a choice. Can you go further if you choose" absolutely.

There is a division in this hobby and it’s not one that is meant to be dividing with malice, condensation, discrediting or marginalizing of anyone. The division is made by all of us as individuals, it’s a choice. Do I take that next step in componentry or do I look for a method that pulls my whole hobby together? It’s not about WAF or any other reasons why not to, it’s about taking a look at what listening is beyond the articles, ads and peer pressure. The method of tuning is about first setting your system free and second tuning it back in to your level of listening. What I’m preaching about is a simple message, the entire recording is there available for us to discover. Our choice to go after it or not is that division and if you look at these pages you will see folks living out that division in real time. It’s not a division between one person and the next unless we make it one. Nope the division is within us, do I stay where I am at or do I go beyond flaceplates, money and my personal reasons why not to.

The OP is no slam, it’s a door. Some have opened this door, some are standing at the door, and others refuse to believe there is even a door there. So it’s not about (and never was) one person claiming themselves better than anyone else. The Tune is about exploring what signal really is by doing and not talking about why we are not doing, or only doing in part. It’s not judging you as a person or your intelligence. It’s a step that you either want to explore or you don’t.

Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net

michaelgreenaudio OP
Hi Geoff

Thanks for the update. I know you were working with several different players, even cassettes. Are those still in use? I thought it very interesting when you went from the HEA setup to the low mass Walkmans.

You know it’s weird I think that so many folks pick on the portable units being sold, and when talking to them I discover they have never really listened to the modern portables. This whole low mass thing really throws HEA audiophiles off for some reason. Around show time CES here I try to make it to some portable demos.

Technology is something else.

>>>>I still use Sony Cassette Players, too. I reckon my portables have gotta be ten or fifteen years old, at least. Sony’s just sound good. The other portables, Panasonic, Philips, Aiwa, and the multitude of secondary brands sound a little off. I have listed before all the technical reasons why I think portables sound so good, you know, like no house AC, no AC ground, no transformers, no interconnects, no power cords, no room acoustic anomalies, no big honking capacitors, no fuses. No more teacher’s dirty looks. Secondary benefits of low mass portable systems include freeing up of a lot of real estate and cost savings, obviously. Plus they’re easier to isolate. You could call it a low-mass system (10 ounces) on a high-mass iso stand (60 pounds).

If thy nose offend thee cut it off.

Thanks for your thoughts aalenik!

Tj is a super guy, and so are many of the Tunees. Watching them go through the steps of tuning and then take the time to share with others makes me very excited for the hobby. 

"Telling people that you can make even the shittiest recordings sound as wonderful as the best (because everyone, even those with great systems & great rooms, has recordings they love and WISH sounded better) is simply dishonest."

No doubt people including myself feel that way until we've tuned. I don't recall anyone saying that the sh***est sounds better than the best or vice versa. What we are saying is until we tune we wouldn't know.
 
As far as selling goes, I quite frankly haven't seen anyone on this forum not selling something. aalenik, if I don't talk to you about tuning, someone else will. Nobodies coming up here to make some of you upset, your doing that all on your own. We're coming up here to share our experiences just like you are sharing your doubts about our experiences. What you think about me or anyone doing that is completely extra. People two or 3 years from now are going to visit this thread and give their thoughts about the intent of myself or any of us. What some of us would hope is that the ones who now doubt, in those couple of years will have explored on their own and find that what we were saying is in fact true. I can only say I'm sorry your upset so many times and so many ways, and again I'm sorry this thread or myself has upset anyone, but this doesn't change the facts, this doesn't even budge the needle. 

aalenik, if you really think I'm being dishonest, your the only one that can change that. I can do nothing but encourage you again to try some of the things that can help you get to another place in your thinking about me or about tuning. 

Now, if some of you are up for some tuning, so are we.

Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net

michaeal,

Again...the same problem.

You produced a vague original post, disparaging some unnamed group of people for talking the talk, but not walking the walk.

You disparaged people who "talk" but don’t "walk" and I was asking what exactly you are referring to, and trying to get details on what exactly constitutes "walking" or appeal to empirical experience in your view, and what type of empirical experience you find necessary or adequate.

You’d think that questions inspired by your own post would have interested you in exploring them. But...apparently not.

I must admit I got no further along in answering Prof than I did before.

Then, honestly, since my questions and suggestions were quite clearly stated, this suggest to me that maybe you haven’t thought as clearly about your ideas as you should? I mean, I’m sure you have a lot to say about them...but if my reply actually tripped you up, that’s a bit baffling. Especially if you want to emphasize words like "empirical" to you audience, you should recognize the relevance of the questions and issues brought up in my reply.

It was really too much to even give an example demonstrating your point?  I thought maybe your OP was broadly aiming at skeptics of various tweaks, cables, fuses, etc which comprise many debates here. But you continually bring the subject back to room tuning, so now I am left to infer your OP had to do with critiques of your own ideas. (?)

Picking it apart and trying to read my attitude or hidden message to be decoded, simply would have to be in the hands of the individual interpreter. I don’t want to start trying to bend the post, or any of my posts, into meaning beyond what they are.

Michael, that is frankly disingenuous, or at least evasive.

It doesn’t take any special "interpretation" or bending of your post for anyone can see that your post was disparaging of some group of people, who you label only "talking" but not "walking" and not doing empirical testing.

And then you appealed to the old "Oh, if that’s what YOU read in to it, that’s on you" move. You should know that’s not being diplomatic, it’s actually the method used by trolls who keep the stink in the air instead of merely saying what someone honest would say, like "Oh, I see you’ve misunderstood me, so I’ll try to help you. Here’s what I meant..."

I asked for clarifications, details, about what you meant; give us an example, and what to you actually counts as "empirical testing" so we can see who would actually fit your description or not, and why. You are criticizing people. Do they deserve it? Who knows, until you actually clarify what you are talking about.

As far as selling goes, I quite frankly haven’t seen anyone on this forum not selling something.

Oh good, more vague insinuations - "everyone is doing it!"

No. I’m not selling anything. As far as I know, the majority on this thread aren’t selling anything either.

I have no problem with salesmen posting in Audiogon or manufacturers. I think with the right attitude we can get really great input and information that way.

And I come to your posts with no preconception either way as to the worth of your products or ideas. For all I know they may be brilliant. 

All I’ve seen though, are lots of vague writing, aspersions tossed without backing them up followed by evasiveness, and a desire to always turn the conversation back to your room tuning ideas (a service that you happen to sell). 

Many manufacturers manage to give input on various audio forums without the somewhat "off-taste" you are inadvertently leaving here.

(I’m not the only one who has noticed this).