Talk but not walk?


Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
glupson,

Thanks.

Nowhere in this thread have I disparaged MG’s products or his room tuning ideas. I did not even take those to be the subject of the thread. Because his OP did not even refer to room tuning, but rather to a much broader complaint about some people critiquing based only on theory but not on what Michael would take to be "empirical" testing.

That could certainly be a fascinating discussion. I’ve long had an interest in the philosophy of empiricism and the philosophy of science, so I was, as I originally mentioned, happy to see someone bring this up.

But my attempt to draw out Michael on his point and ideas only met with...for some bizarre reason...evasions and vagueness. I’m still baffled as to why.

Moreover, Michael’s subsequent posts have been focused on turning the conversation to room tuning and, in fact he has just tipped his hand that his OP, though ostensibly looking for conversation about theoretical vs empirical attitudes, was actually his "door" to offer more about The Tune.  He apparently wasn't looking for dialogue so much as saying "I'm here to give wisdom about my room tuning methods, you are either ready to receive or not."

So, it frankly makes his OP look all the more like a disingenuous, self-serving marketing move - an excuse for him to tell us more about his room/recording tuning, vs a real call to dialogue about the subject he actually implied in the OP.
Prof and Michael Green,

it is really silly to claim that everyone on this forum is selling something. That statement alone waters down any seriousness in that whole post and casts some doubt about remainder of the posts.


I am not here to sell anything. I have a completely different career. I doubt I will be selling anything any time soon, either. I hand my things down.

How many people on this forum are actually selling something? In this particular thread, I found one.

When it comes to no bad recordings (or bad sound carriers of whatever sort), but just about them not being in synch with the room, why do some of my CDs sound worse? It is easily replicated through headphones, too, which I would assume takes away the room factor?
prof,

I did notice that turn towards tuning and came to similar conclusion as you did, but was curious about the things implied in OP so I asked. I have no interest and time to accumulate all the experience in the world when it comes to listening to music so I could become someone considered "walking, not only talking". If a friend tells me "that is great, you should hear it for yourself, I was surprised", I would do it. However, abstaining from any discussion just because I have not done something myself seems fairly unreasonable.
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Hi glupson

"it is really silly to claim that everyone on this forum is selling something"

Of course it is, I was being metaphorical. As in everyone's selling something.

"I guess they can be tuned. Again, I am posting this just for anyone who may be interested how someone who apparently knows what he is doing is doing it and not for arguments about semantics."

I have to say I was floored when someone on this thread said that drums aren’t tuned. I’ve been tuning drums since I was 10 years old and never heard it called anything but tuning. Why would someone come up on an audio thread and say instruments aren’t tuned? Mind blowing!

Amazing some of the things I’ve been called out on, on this thread. I don’t know whether laugh or cry. I went out for some live music tonight and had my friend look up this thread and read it. He started laughing saying "your putting me on". I say no, read it. His next comment to me was (I’m not kidding) "are these retired old men with nothing better to do". STG that’s what he said. He followed it with while he patted me on the back "you have the patience of Job MG".

Maybe my friends and me are just a bunch of snobs. When we met up with the 3rd guy tonight the conversation continued for a few minutes and then we moved on, but it was the same basic response only even more surprise. Anyway it made for some good jokes through the night. But one thing that did get said that I thought was interesting was "I bet these guys have never read TuneLand". That actually made a lot of sense.

Also one last point, both of these guys have tunable systems, and maybe that shapes their view of some of the comments here.

Who knows

Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net