Vandersteen Sub woofers v Rythmik Subs

Hi sonicjoy,

     Very good post with some good points.
    After over 40 yrs of building systems and listening to music in different homes and rooms, I definitely agree with you that every room is different, especially in bass response. 
    When installing a system,  I've recently come to the conclusion that it's best to view a sound reproduction system as 2 separate systems: a bass system and a mid-range treble/sound stage illusion system.  I think having a separate bass system as 4 subs can actually be more useful for achieving best integration and sound if you have the room space.
    The bass is the hardest to get right because the sound waves are so long that they continue to bounce/reflect off all room barriers until they run out of energy.  These sound waves eventually either crash into each other causing standing waves and typically a lack of bass at those points or they piggy-back on another reflected sound wave and cause bass reinforcement and typically exaggerated or boomy bass at these points.  
     Acoustic engineers are able to predict where sound waves will intersect based on the room dimensions, sound wave frequency, barrier material and speaker/sub location(s).
     The beauty of a properly set up distributed bass  array system of 4 or more subs is its ability to eliminate the vast majority of intersecting bass sound waves, and therefore the vast majority of bass peaks and nulls, in any given room.  This not only makes the bass sound more accurate and smoother, the bass response is this good throughout the majority of the room. 
     As you're all too aware, having a small and non-symmetrical  room only makes good bass response more difficult to attain.  I understand you have space and waf issues but I still believe a Swarm distributed bass array system is your best option for achieving state-of-the-art bass response in your room.  
      This system is not as intrusive as some may initially think.  Each sub weighs about 44 lbs., has a 1 sqft. footprint and is 28 inches tall.  Each sub is positioned with the driver facing, and about 1 inch away from, the wall.  The visible portions of each sub(sides, top and back) are made of your choice of high quality wood and actually look quite good and stylish.   Have your wife choose the wood.
      Hiding the speaker wires may be the most difficult issue if you can't run them below the floor or in the walls.

 Just my thoughts-good luck,
      Tim

@noble100 ,
I think Johnny was referring to the integrated equalizer in the new Sub 3.
As far as I know, there are no subs with equalizers incorporated.
B

nobel100
Thanks for the kind words. I bet your system sounds great. Would love to try the swarm out.

So far we seem to mostly focus on trying to solve the bass problems with loudspeakers(subs). However the other way that seems to get less attention is to fix the room.

Lately I have been hanging out at Acoustic Fields web site learning all about room treatment from the owner Dennis Foley. He has a daily youtube channel. Very interesting stuff that may make you rethink some things you think you know about acoustics in listening rooms as well as recording studios. They design room treatment systems for some of the best recording studios and high end listening rooms. But thats a whole new can of worms and a topic for a new thread.

Cheers.

Hi sonicjoy,

     Okay, thanks.  I'll check out the Acoustic Fields website.

     What's great about the Swarm system, when properly set up, is that it requires no room treatments, DSP, equalization,  or room correction mics and software.  It's really kind of magical how eliminating the vast majority of bass standing waves, and the resultant bass peaks and nulls, in the room results in such excellent bass performance throughout the entire room.  I think it's something you have to hear for yourself to really believe.  It sounds too good to be true when just verbally described.  It really took a lot of research and convincing for me to overcome my skepticism and give the distributed bass array system a try.  But I am so grateful I did and now feel like I owe it to other members to spread the word.
     I think this could be considered a type of room treatment because it prevents bass response issues at the root cause, which is likely a lot more effective than trying to compensate or room treat for the inevitable standing waves once they actually exist in the room.  Bass room treatments are typically much larger and less effective than mid-range and treble room treatments in my experience.  
Thanks,
  Tim

" noble100 ,
I think Johnny was referring to the integrated equalizer in the new Sub 3.
As far as I know, there are no subs with equalizers incorporated."

Hi gdnrbob,

     Thanks for responding for audioconnection/Johnny.  

     I understand audioconnection/Johnny is a home audio retailer with Audio Connect in N.J. that sells Vandersteen products.  He seems to be justifiably enthused about Vandersteen's soon to be available Sub Three.  It appears to be a very nice sub for $2,500.
     However, implying that incorporating a 7-band analog equalizer in the Sub Three demonstrates 'thinking outside the box' is a bit of a stretch.  The truth is that it's basically a conventional sub with an equalizer added.  
     An equalizer will not be able to eliminate, or compensate for, the vast majority of bass standing waves that inevitably result from having a single sub in a room.  With proper positioning, the best one could expect to achieve would be good bass response at the preferred listening position.  This will hold true for all single sub systems, no matter the cost or competency of the single sub employed. 
     As I understand it, analog equalizers such as those incorporated in the Sub Three and the Swarm's sub amplifier are useful mainly in compensating for any bass 'slap' present in some rooms that is caused by the reflection of bass sound waves off the floor and to the ceiling.

     The above is not just my opinion.  It is a summary of the results of years of scientific research and experiments conducted by acoustical scientists Earl Geddes, Floyd O'toole and Todd Welti, among others.  
     These experts state that deploying 2 subs will result in fewer bass standing waves and better bass response in the room.  Deploying 3 subs will further significantly reduce bass standing waves, 4 subs will eliminate the vast majority and any additional subs beyond 4 will only result in smaller incremental improvements  in bass response in any given room.
     However, utilizing 4 Vandersteen Sub Threes would cost about $10,000 while the complete Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra 4 sub systems both are priced at $3,000 or less and likely are less intrusive.  

     I'd imagine the Sub Threes would definitely produce more bass than the Swarm system but I'm not certain which system's bass would sound best and, if the Sub Three system did sound best, whether it sounds $7,000 better. 
 Tim