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Why do these Zyx Fuji and Airy 3 have such a dark sound?

Hi everybody.
I only have around 24 hours for this, so I’m posting this last minute. Sorry about this. I’ve also posted this on Vinyl Engine.
Before I go into details, this is my question:

To anybody who owns a Zyx R100 Fuji S or a R1000 Airy 3 X (or similar models), does your cartridge sound "dark" like I describe below (a big dip in the treble)? Sound clips are provided at the end.


Okay, here I go. This is long, so I hope you can cope with all the details, as they are necessary:

I have these two cartridges on loan (and I have to return them tomorrow) because I had previously downloaded vinyl rips done with these two carts, and I really, really liked the sound of those vinyl-rips. The carts seemed quite accurate and neutral and as if they had a fairly flat frequency response and without harshness, which is what I was looking for: Not a "typical" dark MM sound, nor a "typical" bright MC sound either.

So, this is where the trouble starts:
The downloads don’t sound like the recordings I’ve made myself with the same carts! Some people call Zyx carts too bright, but it’s as if the treble is missing on my recordings when I compare to the downloads. It’s possible that I just don’t like these carts after all, but it’s strange that the downloads all have the same sound signature even though they’re from different uploaders using different systems, which would indicate that nothing would have gone wrong in the recording or uploading process.

I think there are four possible explanations to what I describe below:
1: My recordings sound like these carts are supposed to sound like, and I just don’t like them.
2: Something has gone wrong in all of the downloads I mention.
3: None of the phono stages used for the vinyl-rips I mention follow the riaa curve, but are all top-heavy by several dB.
4: All three Zyx carts (yes, three, see further down) are faulty

So, I’m wondering if I’m doing anything wrong, or I can adjust some settings to achieve the same sound as the vinyl-rips I downloaded. I feel like I have literally tried EVERYTHING there is to try. I read that Zyx carts are very sensitive to setup, but no matter what I’ve done, the sound hasn’t changed, except for a slight change in channel balance. I’ll elaborate about this further down. One thing I did notice was that both the Fuji and the Airy were very loud when I stood next to the turntable and listened to them play "acoustically".
Yesterday, I took the Airy to an acquaintance’s place and tried it on his turntable, which was an old Thorens with a Mørch UP4 tonearm. He used PSB Imagine T2 Tower speakers. We both agreed that the recordings done on my setup were identical to how it sounded on his setup, except maybe that there was a slight speed discrepancy.

Here I can also interject that I’ve also been trying out a Goldring 2500 cart at the same time, and that was too bright for me, and even brighter than certain digital 16/44.1 kHz masters that the records had been cut from. So trying that cart, as well as trying the Zyx on my acquaintance’s setup, would rule out that there’s something wrong with my turntable or preamps.

And the last aspect that can rule out that my equipment is the problem is this: Before borrowing the carts, I went to the shop and made a recording (with my own phono preamp with its built-in convert) of the new Zyx Ultimate 100 on their setup, which I’m quite certain was an Acoustic Signature Wow XL or XXL turntable with an Acoustic Signature TA-1000 tonearm. That recording was even darker than the one done with the Fuji on my own setup. The shop also said that the Fuji was a bit brighter than the Ultimate 100.

I use my headphones and Foobar’s ABX plugin to compare my own recordings with the vinyl-rips I downloaded, so even if my headphones were broken, I would be able to hear the difference between my own recordings and the downloads (like I could at my acquaintance’s place yesterday).

Here’s my setup:
* Sennheiser HD650 headphones
* Rega RP3 with an RB-303 tonearm (2013 model)
* NAD PP-4 phono preamp
* Parasound Zphono preamp
* Also a Soundsmith MCP2 MC phono preamp with adjustable ohm loading that the shop lent me. I’ve ONLY used this on the Airy. When loaded with 100 ohm, like the NAD and the Parasound, the only difference I could hear between the Soundsmith and the NAD, was that the Soundsmith was a bit darker sounding. The Parasound is also a bit darker than the NAD. Feel free to read the excellent measurements of the NAD PP-3 on Stereophile’s website. The maximum deviation from the riaa curve is 0.25 dB. When increasing the ohm load to 1000 ohm on the Soundsmith, the treble became more prominent but still not to the same extent as on the downloads. After 1000 ohm it didn’t seem to change any further. At 10 ohm I didn’t hear any difference to 100 ohm. It just seemed strange to me that I had to increase the ohm load that much, when 100 ohm is the standard and when I read that people use less than that for Zyx. Also, the phono stages used in the downloads are not all able to even go to 1000 ohm (nor was it mentioned that the ohm load was that high). I am of course aware that comparing to a random download is not the perfect way to do it, but still… As mentioned, all the downloaded vinyl-rips have the same sound signature.
* Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 A/D converter
* Objective2 + ODAC headphone amp and DAC
I’ve recorded with both the Focusrite converter and the built-in converter in the NAD and I couldn’t tell them apart in an ABX test.

So, these are the settings I’ve been experimenting with:
* Protractors: I’ve printed three protractors: The Baerwald and Stevenson protractors from Vinyl Engine, as well as the Arc Template Generator that Conrad Hoffman made (I used Bearwald for that one as well). I couldn’t hear any difference on any of them, except for one recording with a slight difference. I’ve also tried pushing the cart 1 mm forward or 1 mm back, pushing it all the way forward into the headshell or pulling it all the way back, turning it a bit towards the spindle, or turning it away from the spindle. It didn’t make a difference except for a bit on the channel balance. With my Rega Exact cart I passed blind tests between a Baerwald adjustment and the "factory" setting with three screws (the Baerwald was brighter). In the shop, they adjusted the Ultimate 100 with a Dr. Feickert protractor.
* VTA: I could hear a small difference, but big enough to pass a blind test, between a recording where I raised the arm 6 mm, and one where I put two records beneath the mat, so it would be very much tail down. However, not much of a difference. I also heard the same difference with the Goldring (raised was brighter).
* Counterweight. I’ve tried going from 1,50 grams up to 2,50 grams. I’ve tried Art Salvatore’s recommended 1,85 grams, the recommendation of 1,95 grams from another, 1,79 grams, and pleeeeenty of other combinations, but I would mostly use 2,00 grams. No difference.
* I’ve tried to loosen the screws that bolt the cart to the arm a bit. No difference.
* I’ve used a bubble level to check azimuth (I then adjusted my arm a bit). No difference.

Lastly, you might think that the carts just need to break in. I thought so too, although I’ve always been a bit sceptical about break-in. Anyway, the Airy already had some play on it, and I was actually given another Fuji to try out, and it was well-used, but that one sounded even a bit darker (just worn, really). On top of this, the way I understand break-in is that before a cart is broken in, it will sound harsh and bright – the opposite of what is the case here. But if Zyx carts get a more prominent treble after breaking in, if breaking-in even exists, then this could be the explanation.

So, on to the sound clips:

I have uploaded the following clips recorded with the following equipment (all of my recordings are done with the Focusrite converter), and yes, the albums are all the same editions from the same countries (I always make sure of that):

1: AC/DC "Rock or bust", done with my Rega, the NAD preamp and the Zyx Airy, then the same setup but with the Soundsmith set to 1000 ohm, then the CD, which I believe is the same master used for cutting the record, then the vinyl-rip that I downloaded, which sounds quite close to the CD, done with the following equipment: Micro Seiki DD-8 + ZYX R100 Fuji S, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube Preamp (Telefunken tubes 3xE88CC), TASCAM HS-P82. Lastly, a vinyl-rip download to compare, recorded with a Micro Seiki DDX-1000 / Micro Seiki MA-505L, Benz Micro Ruby Gullwing SHR, Past Audio C-7Super (Deluxe Edition), and M-Audio ProFire 610.

2: Marilyn Manson "Deep six" (from "The Pale Emperor"), my own recording with the Airy and NAD, then also with the Zyx Fuji and NAD, then done with my Rega Exact cartridge and NAD (I did, however, adjust the channel balance on my computer, as it was off, partly because the cart was made that way, and partly because the arm on my own turntable at the time was not mounted completely straight), then the recording from the shop done with the Zyx Ultimate 100 and NAD (detailed above). I had to adjust the channel balance here as well. And then lastly two vinyl-rips I downloaded, done with the following: 1: Pioneer PL-7L + ZYX R100 Fuji X, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube preamp + Tascam HS-P82. 2: Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Trilogy 907, Korg MR-1000. These two downloads sound quite similar.

3: Chris de Burgh "Take it to the top" (from "Man on the line"), my own recording with the Airy and NAD, then a vinyl-rip download done with a Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Sentec/Nebula (A), and Korg MR-1000.

4: Queen "Self-titled" (re-release on Fame) my own recording with the Airy and NAD, and a vinyl-rip download done with Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Sentec/Nebula (A), and Korg MR-1000.

5: Mastodon "Black tongue" (from "The Hunter") my own recording with both a Fuji and an Airy and the NAD, and then with an Airy and the Soundsmith set to 1 kOhm, and then a vinyl-rip download made with Micro Seiki DD-8+ZYX R100 Fuji SH, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube Preamp (Telefunken).

LASTLY, since I figured that most of you wouldn’t have any of these albums, I have included recordings of two albums you might have, so you could compare:

Dire Straits "Brothers in arms" and "On every street" (both original EU prints).

I only have my own recordings of these, but I know that they’re both cut from digital 44.1 kHz masters, and my recordings are not very close to the CDs. The Goldring cart was brighter than the CDs, since it seemed to have a big spike in the treble.

So, here are the downloads:
https://mega.nz/#!dMZzmQxL!NnJaOtkx281lunKjeRpwSTmkKa8CUYuaEoVehKiyy-k

I hope this doesn’t sound offensive, but I’ll just say this to avoid any potential arguments and that people waste their time writing a lot of things: As you might have noticed, I’m a no-nonsense guy, so please no suggestions like "digital is crap", "you’re deaf", "buy a different turntable", or "buy brand X phono stage" or "buy new interconnects" or "buy a Nordost power cord" or "these carts are not good for that type of music" or whatever, because it’s besides the point, I’m not going to buy any of that, and I’m not I even going to debate it.

Anyway, I appreciate any and all help :-).
Thanks, and thanks for reading through all this!
board
lewm
13,007 posts
 
It’s too late to edit my post above, but, for example...
Chakster, The OP is not saying that the ZYX cartridges are dark sounding. He is asking WHY they sound dark to him, via his digital copies of LPs played through his headphones. He seems to recognize that something is "off", in order for the cartridges to sound as they do to his ears, in his set-up. The experience in his home system, such as it is, differs from his experience when he first auditioned the cartridges on some other rig. Or on his own rig but digitized by someone else. (I am not sure which.)

To anyone else, I don't see where the OP ever stated that "digital is better than analog". He is just telling us how he auditioned the two cartridges and that his method is constrained by the fact that part of his system is packed away.  I don't know whether he prefers digital to analog or vice-versa, just from reading his posts, except that he does say that he cannot distinguish any difference between his digital rips of LP content and signal derived direct from an LP, in his system.  There are many others who share that opinion, but most persons in that camp are digitizing with more expensive stuff, not to say better stuff.

To the OP, in all your ensuing responses, when you describe your listening experiences, were they ALL based on listening to digitized copies of one LP or another, regardless of all other variables? In other words, have you ever heard either cartridge directly via an all analog pathway?

Maybe the moral of the story is to simplify your question before posting.
thom_at_galibier_design's avatar
thom_at_galibier_design
729 posts
 
Lew’s simplification comment is spot on.

One of the drawbacks of being so thorough is that the number of steps added to the process offers more opportunities to miss something.

I get that the OP is trying to be systematic and thorough, but going through (for example) multiple alignments is a waste of time in the context of what he’s trying to accomplish. When was the last time someone told you that Loefgren results in a deficient top end in comparison with Baerwaald or Stevenson?

Because of the number of steps and therefore, opportunities for errors to creep into the process (ask me how I know), I’ve stayed out of this conversation.

I’m waiting to hear back a year from now how the OP swapped out his highly capacitive tonearm cable for a lower capacitance one and this resolved the problem.

Sometimes, you can get too smart for your own good.

An example: a customer reported having one channel being much lower in level than the other. His conclusion was that I had miswired a step-up transformer. After a lengthy interrogation, I learned quite by accident that he was loading the channels differently - with one channel on his ZYX Universe seeing a 2 ohm load and the other one a load in the 30’s. When I asked him about this, he commented: "Well of course! One side of my room is "brighter" than the other ... words to that effect).

Folks do the darndest things.

The fact that the OP doesn’t hear any differences in a wide range of tracking force sets off a BIG alarm with me. It tells me that there’s something in his signal chain that needs addressing and it’s masking any other parameter changes he’s experimenting with.

A .02 to .03 gram change in tracking can make a huge difference in the dynamic presentation with these cartridges. My experience mirrors that of Salvatore. With the ZYX suspension, I’d start off in the 1.85 to 1.88 range.

Similarly, a heavy hand with too much anti-skate can kill dynamics. I’d set anti-skate to zero and add a tiny bit back over time, while being observant of the dynamic presentation.

I’d also play with mass tuning if the tonearm has multiple counterweights.

I realize that this conversation is about upper frequency response, but a compromised dynamic presentation can lend a perception of a lessened high frequency balance, since you’re killing the leading edge transients.

In short, this isn’t the sort of thing you can solve at a keyboard or by ripping files.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design
karl_desch's avatar
karl_desch
426 posts
 
Well said @thom_mackris .
board OP
12 posts
 
I admit that I should probably have shortened my original post to avoid confusion, so here are some answers and responses to the on-topic comments (some of this will be repetition), but first a question for karl_desch:

I included rips of my own recordings of Mastodon (Fuji and Airy), but also of the downloaded vinyl-rip (Fuji), and the downloads are much brighter. To me, the downloads is what I would expect a Zyx to sound like. Are my own "dark" rips or the "bright" downloaded rips more accurate in your estimations, meaning if you have a Zyx cart yourself and the Mastodon record, does the record in your system sound closer to my "dark" rips or the "bright" downloaded rip?
And thanks for taking the time to listen to them :-).



* The "other rig" that Lewm mentions are hi-res digital vinyl-rips that I've downloaded of several albums recorded by various people. They all have the same sonic signature, whether it's a Fuji or an Airy, which is what is so confusing to me. It would make sense that a rip from one person might sound different than my recording, but they ALL sound different than my recordings, and they ALL have the SAME sonic signature despite different turntables, tonearms, phono preamps, cables, etc.

* I listened almost exclusively to my digital recordings, but I also brought the Airy to an acquaintance's place both to make recordings and listen to the cart in his system. He was the one with a Thorens deck, a Mørch tonearm and PSB speakers. It sounded the same at his place.
I then also have recordings of the Ultimate 100 from the shop, where they set it up on their equipment. That one was even darker, so perhaps I just don't like these Zyx'es after all and something had gone wrong in the rips I downloaded (although it strikes me as odd that all the downloads had the same sonic signature, even though they were done by different people with different equipment, but ...)
Again, the Goldring was much brighter than the Zyx, and on the Dire Straits tracks it was brighter than the CD, even though the record was cut from a digital 44.1 kHz master. 

* About Baerwald/Stevenson, then I actually went from Stevenson to Baerwald with my previous Rega Exact cart, since with Baerwald the sound was a bit brighter (the Exact has a treble dip). But with the Zyx it didn't change anything.

* I fiddled with tracking force and didn't hear a change with the Zyx'es. With the Goldring 2500 and my previous Rega Exact I could hear a difference when changing the tracking force, and although I wouldn't call the difference enormous I passed blind tests. With the Goldring I also loaded recordings of light and heavy tracking forces into CurveEQ in Audacity (this plug-in let's you see the difference in EQ between two recordings), and it mirrored what I had heard: That one VTF setting was brighter than the other (the curve showed a decrease in high frequencies and a light bass boost on one VTF setting compared to the other).

* With the Zyx I heard a small difference when raising the VTA 6 mm and also with the Goldring, but the difference was very small (but I passed a blind-test). The difference with the Goldring might have been greater than with the Zyx.

* I also tried setting the anti-skating to zero instead of 1.5-2.0, and I think I also tried intermediate settings. I could see a small difference in the channel balance in the recordings, but that was all.

* It is of course possible that the capacitance on the cables in my arm is the culprit (it's the standard Rega cables), but it's then strange that the Ultimate 100 in the shop, on their turntable, also sounded "dark", and so did my acquaintance's Thorens/Mørch combo.

* In any case, I've returned the carts as mentioned. It would of course be lovely if we could figure out if the explanation was not that I just didn't like the Zyx'es, since those rips that I downloaded were some of the only ones that I had truly liked. But don't worry to much about it, guys :-).
I'm considering Hana, Shelter or Soundsmith instead, but I'll look into it.
board OP
12 posts
 
And then just to deal with the off-topic points being made:

I also use Sennheiser headphones, but the music in my system with full range drivers of 101db is another world, completely different experience when it comes to cartridges.

Obviously, I also hear a difference between my speakers and my headphones, but you're still missing the point. The point is that there is a DIFFERENCE between the vinyl-rips I downloaded and my own recordings, and anybody would be able to hear that difference on both speakers and headphones.


Now please tell me why a copy from the original pressing is not a good source for reissue, why people like Analogue Production always looking for an original mastertape to make a proper reissues? Why do they need super rare mastertape if they could just rip the original vinyl in mint condition for the reissue?

This is where you're contradicting your own point.
The vinyl edition of the album is not the source, and often it's not even close to the source. Yes, some vinyl pressings would be audibly indistinguishable from the analogue master tape in a blind-test (save for ticks and pops), but often the two can fairly easily be told apart. Obviously, you would need/prefer the original source to make a reissue, whether on vinyl or CD. If they could get their hands on the master tape, no serious company would release a reissue of an album, which is just a rip of a vinyl record, since the vinyl edition doesn't sound like the master tape.

this is analog and you loose something when it became digital.

Not true. If you understand how digital audio works, such as what the Nyquist theorem states (and how many times it's been proven by various, independent people), what bit depth really is (it's not resolution), how sample rates really work, and what loop-back tests prove, then you know that you don't lose anything within audibility when digitizing a signal. On top of that, pro-digital people, for instance Stanley Lipshitz, acknowledge that early converters were poor quality, but from around the time that CD's were introduced and onwards, digitized copies of analogue signals could not be distinguished from the source, except for certain very specific cases done with poor early converters. The only reports of an audible difference with decent equipment are sighted tests done by analogue fanboys. As of yet, there are no properly conducted blind-tests that show that people can distinguish between an analogue source and the digitized copy, or even just the analogue source with an A/D/A loop inserted. And I would be perfectly happy to back this up (my sources range from recent years all the way back to 1984).

That said, almost all the CDs I have heard from the 80s sound poor: Screechy, shrill, cold and thin. But that's because they were mastered that way - it's NOT the fault of the medium, except maybe in certain very specific cases in the 80s, since certain A/D converters were less than stellar (as Stanley Lipshitz accepted).
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