Talk but not walk?


Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


michaelgreenaudio

When you guys start shouting (and most of the time with anger) VooDoo that really only tells the listening world that you haven’t reached the level of empirical testing.


No, Michael.  No.

People who call out your voodoo do so on a firmer understanding of empiricism than you seem to have.

You only use words like "empiricism" and "science" to pay lip-service, to give some reputable gloss on your claims, but without actually "walking the walk" of truly responsible empiricism.

The whole point of science has been to come up with a more reliable, empirically responsible method of inquiry.

"Experience + Testing" does NOT automatically yield science, or reliable results. We can misinterpret experience in all manner of ways, and we can have unreliable methods of "testing" that yield incorrect results.
So just invoking THOSE aspects do little to justify your "method."
Because mere experiencing/testing is used to "confirm" virtually every crackpot theory in existence. It’s what the Flat Earthers are claiming as well. They "experience" that the world is flat - hey, just use your eyes! You can see it’s flat so that’s the right conclusion! - and they "test" their idea in all manner of ways. But it is of course the faulty nature of their tests, and bad assumptions, and ignoring of any data inconvenient to their beliefs, that continue to...what a surprise!...support their belief system! And yet actually reliable empirical methods show their conclusions are ludicrously off-base.

A good hypothesis will usually build on already robust and reliable bodies of knowledge. If for instance you proposed that shifting the angle of X speaker in Y room will alter the sound in X manner, then there would be mountains of firmly established theory and evidence - based on carefully scientifically controlled variables! - suggesting the plausibility of this hypothesis. I’m unaware of any such evidence, mountain or otherwise, for your claim that tie wraps cause capacitors to alter the sound in the ways you claim. Which is why I keep asking for that evidence. But of course...never get it.

And when one is being a truly responsible empiricist, you try to acknowledge the reality of variables - e.g. data on listener/experimenter bias - and incorporate that into your method of testing.

I’ve been asking about your method; to what degree you control for variables and how (including listener/experimenter bias). But of course from you...silence.

Someone who understands science scales his beliefs to the evidence, and doesn’t simply IGNORE counter evidence, and doesn’t ignore skeptical challenges from others. In fact, it IS skeptical challenges from others that makes science WORK. Skepticism is GOOD for you, Michael, if you actually care about the truth (or warranted confidence level) of your beliefs.

People who understand this have no problem when someone asks them hard or skeptical questions about their claims.

Casting skeptical questions as "negativity" is what you get from PSEUDO-SCIENTISTS.

What you get in pseudo-science is lip service to terms like empiricism and science and method and testing....but no actual principled adherence to the virtues of science. People doing pseudo-science embrace any support for their belief, embrace only "positive" feedback, but reject skeptical feedback.

Hence they can keep whatever beliefs they have going, unsullied by skeptics or a truly honest empirical method that seeks to prove themselves "wrong" as much as "correct" (that’s what you are seeking, if you are seeking truth).

Michael, your every bit of behavior here, especially to my queries, have fit the very model of pseudo-science. It’s really no mystery why you won’t and can’t answer the substance of my questions.

So go ahead of course, and keep on Tuning. More power to you.

But please don’t try to keep claiming some empirical high ground with lip service to science. You’ll be called on it, unlike back in your forum where people apparently don’t know better.

And please don’t pretend you are taking the high ground here, given the ways your pseudo-scientific evasions lower the level of discourse. It’s easy to play The Nice Guy when people just lap up your wisdom and thank you for it. But this is a public forum so you have to also Play Nice, that is show good faith replies and intellectual honesty, to the people who DON’T automatically greet you with open arms, and who exercise their right to critical thinking, asking your harder, more skeptical questions.

Evading those questions, while casting those people as negative people or trolls...is pernicious to healthy, open discourse. And you will be called on this here, as well.


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Hi Prof, sorry I didn’t read your post. But I did want to say that in the last two days I have received emails from 3 of the members here who took the tops of their components and said they heard a difference. Opps!

I look forward to having fun with them as they get involved with walking the tune.

Also, I hope that folks can see I have a lot of fun in this business as I have my whole life in music. It was quite the upbringing. And to you prof, I hope you can calm down in time and take in some of the fun we as Tunees have to share. Man my friend I have been in and out of so many studios, listening rooms and test labs that it’s time to relax and enjoy all the experiences. If you do come to Vegas sometime let me know and maybe we can do diner. No need for you guys to get all worked up on here with me. I’ve been doing music so long I’ve seen every type of personality you can imagine.

It’s like lighten up and relax a little. You don’t have to be the hobby’s prosecutor, it’s a used audio forum, not anything so pressing. I tune, so what? Guys are trying (walking) and seeing for themselves. It’s about fun man. Trying to paint me as a bad guy doesn’t move the needle buddy, I’m already known.

You and Kosst and a couple of others have missed the MG execution by some 40 plus years, if there was one. I mean come on man, chill. Let others enjoying tuning if they want.

You were right about one thing Prof "people are watching" so take it easy. This is nothing for you to be so mad about.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

kosst,

I checked out that link.

What you missed was an extremely fishy bit of flash animation.
So under the web site heading "credits" you have vague (can you believe that?) allusions to being involved with Michael Green Design is "associated" with these fine musicians, that for "20 years" his tuning philosophy has helped bring us some of today's greatest music, his room tunes have been used by "countless" musicians including legendary artists...

And then flash animation shows a long list of artists that include:

The Beatles, Miles Davis, Moody Blues, Lois Armstrong, Queen, Moody Blues, Rolling Stones, Roy Orbison...

Now, I'm left to wonder how someone's 20 year old tuning philosophy has anything to do with The Beatles, Miles Davis Louis Armstrong and those others.

And what services did Michael Green actually render to all the bands mentioned?

One is left with the exceedingly fishy smell that someone's credentials and involvement have been inflated, and that the page relies on vague enough implications of association that people will put his work together with those artists.

But I'm certainly open to finding out I'm incorrect, if Michael would supply detail as to how his work played a part with the above mentioned artists.

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