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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
glupson
7,842 posts
 
jf47t,

I was not kidding at all. Your description of what you heard was quite impressive. I mean, it seemed that differences were impressive to the point of disbelief when reading about them. As you described it in a way I simply did not have enough imagination to translate it to myself (instruments feeding off of each other, or something like that), I thought I could ask. I really have no clue what that meant although it seems clear that it was something good. The part about karaoke machine was what first came to my mind when I read that just one of the instruments disappeared. I have never heard anything similar so I am curious. I could understand, better to say that I can accept, that some instrument disappeared as I could imagine how it sounds then, but that feeding part I just could not grasp. Presence, I got.

glupson
7,842 posts
 
geoffkait,

I am not special at all when it comes to not calling people on the thread cows, crazy, grasshoppers, etc. Most of the posters refrain from that. Even Michael Green and prof, at the height of their argument, abstained from such descriptions despite obvious disagreement and annoyance by each other. They were much more inventive and entertaining even at that lowest point. Or, should I say, highest point of their argument.

As far as talking the talk goes, I have not taken Michael Green's original post personally at all on that level. At least in part due to the fact that I do not consider myself an audiophile and would not argue other person's dedication to something she/he likes to do while I am not that passionate about it. As Michael Green requested, I am not here to start the fight. However, I do read the thread carefully and try to learn from it. It places me in a position of being able to ask questions for which I do not have preconceived answers.

All of that brings me to more questions that I thought of while driving for a couple of hundred of miles earlier today and that are related to this thread. What does it really mean "talk" and what does it really mean "walk" for the purpose of this thread? Thread got broadened and we all got away from that "talk or walk", some being accused of only "talking". Even I did admit a few times quite openly that I am probably a "talker" despite having a SONY Walkman that I use quite often (NW 35 A, or something like that, lime color). However, what is it all about? I understand that those who construct their own amplifiers are probably walkers. That is easy. What about those who buy finished products from someone who worked to invent/make them? Are those just "talkers" or they are also "walkers"? Most of the people do not have time to sandpaper their speaker enclosures or stretch wires to make cables. Not even to cut cubes out of whatever the preferred wood might be. Are they just talkers? They do nothing but give a credit card out. They obviously "walk" in some other field to be able to do it, but they do not do much in some audiophile world. I am honestly asking that. Of course, who and how gets to decide who is the walker and who is the talker? My friends would tell you that I am an audio walker while my whole system is not worth a pair of cables many people discuss on Audiogon and most of the time I listen to an old iPod Touch via $50 iHome Bluetooth speaker. So, what is "talking" and what is "walking"? Could you provide examples? I am curious.
geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
You sure can talk. I’m still thinking about the question. 🙄
glupson
7,842 posts
 
geoffkait,

Thank you for considering. Take your time.
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Guys

I'm back for a few minutes. Sorry if I disappear from time to time, it's called work. Or in my case it's called fun.

I'm pretty happy reading through this thread as the OP is playing itself out perfectly. The nice thing about threads is they become a documentation of the subject and at the same time they expose insights to our personalities and thought processes. It's interesting that some readers understood the OP for exactly what it was and others put their personality spins on the words typed. For myself this was very revealing and gave way to intent, not of the OP, but the interpretations of the OP.

The other interesting thing was how some thought I was being evasive and not answering questions, when I actually did present a pathway to the answers. Think about it "Talk but not walk?". It's a very simple question meaning why don't we add some empirical (doing) investigation into our talking. Some who read this said oh yeah I get it, others how dare he suggest I'm not walking, and some an opportunity to express their feelings about whatever they felt their soap box needed to be for the day. Some came up here to show that they can one up the OP, some to gather fans onto themselves, some to blow off steam, some to rewrite the words already chosen and some to joke. But, all the OP was really asking was "lets do a little doing". Some of the hints were "the laminar flow thing" and "the capacitor" thing. Both of these are super easy things to test, but the OP was asking "is anyone going to test".

I was prepared to give a whole list of things to "do" and then the readers could give the results of their "doing".  Posters did come up and said "I Do" and other posters responded "talking" about these doers but not actually doing. To the onlookers who did email me, they couldn't understand why the talkers couldn't see the OP for what it is, and the need for them to turn the OP into something else. Others who emailed me said "lets get started on the doing of my system". Some even congratulated me for breaking the ice. They thanked me for chiseling away at the endless spinning. But I didn't do the chiseling, I simply posted the OP and the interpreters did their own chiseling based on their own mindsets. As far as I am concerned I've been waiting to give any explanation needed for folks to comprehend the OP, but as long as the responders are stuck in their own created spins, I can wait. Besides I've been busy walking.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

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