Talk but not walk?


Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
geoffkait,

I am not special at all when it comes to not calling people on the thread cows, crazy, grasshoppers, etc. Most of the posters refrain from that. Even Michael Green and prof, at the height of their argument, abstained from such descriptions despite obvious disagreement and annoyance by each other. They were much more inventive and entertaining even at that lowest point. Or, should I say, highest point of their argument.

As far as talking the talk goes, I have not taken Michael Green's original post personally at all on that level. At least in part due to the fact that I do not consider myself an audiophile and would not argue other person's dedication to something she/he likes to do while I am not that passionate about it. As Michael Green requested, I am not here to start the fight. However, I do read the thread carefully and try to learn from it. It places me in a position of being able to ask questions for which I do not have preconceived answers.

All of that brings me to more questions that I thought of while driving for a couple of hundred of miles earlier today and that are related to this thread. What does it really mean "talk" and what does it really mean "walk" for the purpose of this thread? Thread got broadened and we all got away from that "talk or walk", some being accused of only "talking". Even I did admit a few times quite openly that I am probably a "talker" despite having a SONY Walkman that I use quite often (NW 35 A, or something like that, lime color). However, what is it all about? I understand that those who construct their own amplifiers are probably walkers. That is easy. What about those who buy finished products from someone who worked to invent/make them? Are those just "talkers" or they are also "walkers"? Most of the people do not have time to sandpaper their speaker enclosures or stretch wires to make cables. Not even to cut cubes out of whatever the preferred wood might be. Are they just talkers? They do nothing but give a credit card out. They obviously "walk" in some other field to be able to do it, but they do not do much in some audiophile world. I am honestly asking that. Of course, who and how gets to decide who is the walker and who is the talker? My friends would tell you that I am an audio walker while my whole system is not worth a pair of cables many people discuss on Audiogon and most of the time I listen to an old iPod Touch via $50 iHome Bluetooth speaker. So, what is "talking" and what is "walking"? Could you provide examples? I am curious.

Hi Guys

I'm back for a few minutes. Sorry if I disappear from time to time, it's called work. Or in my case it's called fun.

I'm pretty happy reading through this thread as the OP is playing itself out perfectly. The nice thing about threads is they become a documentation of the subject and at the same time they expose insights to our personalities and thought processes. It's interesting that some readers understood the OP for exactly what it was and others put their personality spins on the words typed. For myself this was very revealing and gave way to intent, not of the OP, but the interpretations of the OP.

The other interesting thing was how some thought I was being evasive and not answering questions, when I actually did present a pathway to the answers. Think about it "Talk but not walk?". It's a very simple question meaning why don't we add some empirical (doing) investigation into our talking. Some who read this said oh yeah I get it, others how dare he suggest I'm not walking, and some an opportunity to express their feelings about whatever they felt their soap box needed to be for the day. Some came up here to show that they can one up the OP, some to gather fans onto themselves, some to blow off steam, some to rewrite the words already chosen and some to joke. But, all the OP was really asking was "lets do a little doing". Some of the hints were "the laminar flow thing" and "the capacitor" thing. Both of these are super easy things to test, but the OP was asking "is anyone going to test".

I was prepared to give a whole list of things to "do" and then the readers could give the results of their "doing".  Posters did come up and said "I Do" and other posters responded "talking" about these doers but not actually doing. To the onlookers who did email me, they couldn't understand why the talkers couldn't see the OP for what it is, and the need for them to turn the OP into something else. Others who emailed me said "lets get started on the doing of my system". Some even congratulated me for breaking the ice. They thanked me for chiseling away at the endless spinning. But I didn't do the chiseling, I simply posted the OP and the interpreters did their own chiseling based on their own mindsets. As far as I am concerned I've been waiting to give any explanation needed for folks to comprehend the OP, but as long as the responders are stuck in their own created spins, I can wait. Besides I've been busy walking.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

From the OP:

As far as I am concerned I've been waiting to give any explanation needed for folks to comprehend the OP, but as long as the responders are stuck in their own created spins, I can wait. Besides I've been busy walking.

I for one am not interested in comprehending the OP and since the originator is being patient in providing answers to questions asked from the readership being that everyone is stuck here on our own spins, we offer some highly opinionated answers to a couple of outstanding questions. At the same time, we wish to separate ourselves from the OP’s tactics so without further delays and/or psychological gamesmanship:  

My name is Robert and member of Star Sound (SS), a vibration management company. The OP and I crossed paths a quarter century ago where I was an Authorized Dealer for the OP’s products in a high-end boutique located in Allentown, PA in business from 1985 through 1993. We mechanically grounded walls with brass cones and reinforced wall structures by applying various shapes of blocks of wood and metals to existing drywall and flame resistant wall spread surfaces using various sized brackets, long bolts and nuts for anchoring purposes. Through various tensions we were able to change the sonic of the environment. I’m guessing this experience can be accepted by the acolytes as “walking the walk” therefore am fairly qualified to post here as an experienced tuner.

Please keep in mind that the OP and I are entirely different people with two completely diverse technical approaches to audio reproduction but share in and rely on a known application for product function titled mechanical grounding.


Regards to tuning:

Those who have not heard it have no basis to criticize it. Those who have not should try it.  

Good Point… I agree this technique provides function with audible results however… as musicians, engineers, audiophiles and most listeners already know - whatever instrument or device that is ‘tunable’ or has the mechanical means to alter harmonic structures particularly when using any type of woods combined with metal parts and tension procedures; the instrument and/or room will and does  “Go Out of Tune” via changes in temperature (contraction and expansion), air pressure, humidity or whereas pitch can simply alter over the course of elapsed time.

Having to constantly adjust the room, racks and speakers prior to and during listening sessions took too much time out of the day whereas some listeners may thrive having the capability for continuous change. The initial rush felt like I was mixing music again only changing the entire piece of recorded material in a ‘post production setting' compared to mixing individual instruments and vocals. This result yielded a really weird sensation but also one of accomplishment.

The largest drawback was the system and room never achieved a reliable point of reference. Charting measurements was improbable as the environment and system were always in a state of flux eventually leading me to abandon the tuning process.

Proof of this statement is provided from jt47t:

Now I realize that each recording can and should be tuned in as an individual set of values. With every recording we play it is slightly out of tune as compared to the last tuning. With some simple adjustments the soundstage becomes full and the tone balanced. For example the bass line on each recording is completely different from the next. The highs are too but the bass more so. Once we get that bottom end tuned it seems like the rest of the range falls into place or is at least easier to fine tune.

I eventually found difficulty in taking the required time and patience to dial in a single recording because listening time is always cut way too short. In my opinion, people should first analyze their listening habits, goals and available time parameters then decide if the variable adjusting methodology is right for them.


@amg56

Regards to your statement to the OP   -

Explain how or why this works. Why is it so hard to get a straight answer?

Here is my basic opinion on how this methodology functions (anyone can discover this on their own so there are no trade secrets being revealed here).

The process uses metal round rods or bar stock material on the interior of a wood box and is usually accompanied by two brass bolts located outside the box. The bolts are direct-coupled to the bar stock via machined threading with the wood surfaces located in between the metallic parts.

Applying ‘tension’ to the bolt mechanism creates a physical pressure against the wood surface establishing via compression and release the capability to alter the audible harmonic structure of whatever rack, speaker or wall device is in use.


Opposites attract:

Our Company’s technical approach to audio reproduction, environmental sound management and musical instrument applications are based on mechanical grounding techniques. We work to greatly reduce the highly audible frequencies of wood vibrating in hi-fi playback systems and listening environments.

Some prefer the use of wood stating that it offers a warmer or softer sound hence you always get various opinions of which kind (maple, poplar, mahogany, Amish hand-picked ⌣, rare or exotic hardwoods, etc.) and which type of finished wood sounds best (kiln dried, air dried, veneered, stained, painted, hard sealed, etc.). This is where the personal flavoring selections and argumentative conversations on what wood sounds best originate.


SS prefers to rely on applied geometry, material science and metals because the frequency of these "resonance conductive" materials and mass when vibrating are well above and below the range of human hearing. You do not hear their noise qualities unlike wood.

Reducing vibrating wood surfaces greatly lessens the amount of frequencies and noise in the environment. Removing any audible and/or inaudible noise from the overall formula creates open air space so you hear more of your speaker system in comparison to a lot of other self induced sounds being present.


The OP’s approach involves adjusting the harmonics of vibrating wood and often adds a lot more wood into the environment by using more products where the need for more adjustments are then required. There is no wrong doing here as previously stated above, some listeners may prefer and expand their enjoyment from this methodology.


Common Link:

Mechanical grounding is the key process that improves the performance in SS products as well as the OP’s products too. He uses brass cones to connect the stands to the flooring and metal screws or bolts to attach and mechanically ground the products to the walls and I am fairly sure he still uses brass cones or metal objects between the components and rack shelves to mechanically ground the components to the rack structure establishing the method of vibration management known as resonance transfer. Without mechanical grounding we would not have a company or technology to advance.


I feel the need to interject here involving jf47t to amg56:

jf47t states…

OK here's what you do amg. That thing at the top of your page. You type in "how to tune a guitar" now click on videos and it will take you to about a hundred or so videos on tuning a guitar. Now if you choose to pick another instrument simply type in that instrument and it will tell you how to tune it. Let us know what you learn.

There may be some confusion as to the use of the descriptive term ‘tuning’ as the OP’s methodology does not allow for tuning individual notes as on a musical instrument but does alter the harmonic structure and sound of a chassis.

As not to argue but physically tuning up an instrument for playback is easy to understand and likewise accomplish, however actually knowing what is happening to the instrument with concerns to the forces of shear, tension, vibration, energy build and release, resonance build up and what is actually happening to the string (if it is a guitar) and how those forces relates to sound and velocity is what information I believe amg56 is searching for from the OP?


Example: The readership has asked for definitions on how resonators function. Our R&D manager and product specialist, Tom D (the audiotweak) provided information to that question on 05-24-2018 11:41am and defined speaker function on 05-16-2018 9:48am.


amg56 admitted he did his four years of time and earned a degree in engineering so it’s in his blood to seek out more detailed information. To the best of my knowledge he and gkait are the only persons posted on this thread that have earned their authentic ‘goatskins’. If there are more, please let us know more on your background. There are also those here claiming to hold that distinctive title in education but obviously do not.

Thank you for your time,

Robert - Star Sound


Disclaimer:

Star Sound strives to deliver information to the best of our knowledge as we understand it without infringing on discoveries that are currently involved in the US Patent process. We do not know enough about empirical testing labs or empirical testing methods as they are not recognized as part of our program of study so we’ll let those topics up to others for validation.

Likewise we believe anyone who posts or reads audio related forums are already ‘talking the walk’ by reasons of working to gain greater knowledge and/or achieving better sound regardless of processes, progress, achieving successes and or failures. We all fail quite often while talking the walk and also walking the walk.

Vibration management in audio reproduction is overwhelmingly based on a host of questionable and arguable theories where we also share different opinions and objections. Without all those historical theories our company and newfound technology would not exist. Theory leads to discovery!

Our company is moving forward by learning about sound reproduction and function related to vibration in much greater detail and continues working to earn acceptance from the fact filled, documents required always demanding proof and well tested scientific community. Our theoretical concepts and products, despite all accomplishments are still a work in progress.

Converting theory to fact has been by far - the most difficult path to gain.