2. misc-audio
  3. 136121-109363

What Matters and What is Nonsense

I’ve been an audiophile for approximately 50 years. In my college days, I used to hang around the factory of a very well regarded speaker manufacturer where I learned a lot from the owners. When I started with audio it was a technical hobby. You were expected to know something about electronics and acoustics. Listening was important, but understanding why something sounded good or not so good was just as important. No one in 1968 would have known what you were talking about if you said you had tweaked your system and it sounded so much better. But if you talked about constant power output with frequency, or pleasing second-order harmonic distortion versus jarring odd-order harmonics in amplification, you were part of the tribe.

Starting in the 1980s, a lot of pseudo scientific nonsense started appearing. Power cords were important. One meter interconnects made a big difference. Using a green magic marker on the edge of a CD was amazing. Putting isolation dampers under a CD transport lifted the veil on the music. Ugh. This stuff still make my eyes roll, even after all these years.

So I have decided to impart years and years of hard won knowledge to today’s hobbists who might be interested in reality. This is my list of the steps in the audio reproduction chain, and the relative importance of each step. My ranking of relative importance includes a big dose of cost/benefit ratio. At this point in the evolution of audio, I am assuming digital recording and reproduction.

Item / Importance to the sound on a scale of 1-10 / Cost benefit ratio

  • The room the recording was made in / 8 / Nothing you can do about it
  • The microphones and setup used in the recording / 8 / nothing you can do about it.
  • The equalization and mixing of the recording / 10 / Nothing you can do about it
  • The technology used for the recording (analog, digital, sample rate, etc.) / 5 / nothing you can do about it.
  • The format of the consumer recording (vinyl, CD, DSD, etc.) 44.1 - 16 really is good enough / 3 / moderate CB ratio
  • The playback device i.e. cartridge or DAC / 5 / can be a horribe CB ratio - do this almost last
  • The electronics - preamp and amp / 4 / the amount of money wasted on $5,000 preamps and amps is amazing.
  • Low leve interconnects / 2 / save your money, folks
  • Speaker cables / 3 / another place to save your money
  • Speakers / 10 / very very high cost to benefit ratio. Spend your money here.
  • Listening room / 9 / an excellent place to put your money. DSPs have revolutionized audio reproduction
In summary, buy the best speakers you can afford, and invest in something like Dirac Live or learn how to use REW and buy a MiniDSP HD to implement the filters. Almost everything else is a gross waste of money.
128x128phomchick
playmore
15 posts
 
Fleschler
Thanks for that post. Just so happens I was looking for a transport to the Bitfrost for CD's not yet ripped or friend  brings over. Replacing a very creaky Marantz 63 (original owner). I have good experience with Pioneer transports but was not sure about DVD versions. Found a DV 05 with no remote for 50 + 20. and the current set up does not allow for remote use easily anyway. Eventually suspect I will stumble on remote.
It will be interesting to compare the ouput from Pioneer analog with Bitfrost from the digital out, real easy to A B with no latency from pre amp.Sound IS better from Bitfrost compared to ancient Marantz.

Speaking of tweaking the current pre is an older Denon IC based unit recapped and all Op Amps changed to modern high level versions. The pv8 currently lives elsewhere. The re do went well meaning I did not induce oscillation with high speed opamps or otherwise bugger it up and seems to not be the limitting factor in the system. By comparing to no pre amp. Helps to have an EE buddy with pro de-soldering equipment to get all the ICs out. The process taught me a lot about op amp design and state of the art of those little dead bug looking things...
Back to the original post, there are a lot of op amps in the production chain of most of what we listen to. I guess we have to be playing pre 1965 or so vinyl to get away from them? So the IC nay sayers have a BIT of explaining to do. Not inviting rants, although thoughtfull informed commentary always welcome. I do like my cj PV8 more, but then, tubes is tubes.
Thanks again again fleschler, I'll report on the Pioneer. (You weren't by chance selling a DV 05 just now for 50 + 20 ?)
: )
rtrosper
3 posts
 
If your speaker wire and interconnects are affecting the sound there’s something wrong with them. They certainly CAN function as non linear devices if they’re made to be but I wouldn’t want that. Make sure they are of sufficient gauge and properly shielded and move on. If you’re into vinyl I would and did spend a lot on the cartridge. Like speakers they are electromechanical and hard to do right. The turntable should not add noise and maintain a constant speed. The arm should track smoothly and not add noise. All that exclusive of the cartridge can be gotten for under a thousand. Amps and preamps should be linear as well but not everyone likes that so go with what you like. Subwoofers are not evil particularly for movies. Great speakers exist for less than 3k but dollars there make the greatest difference to a point. That is, I think over 10k is pretty diminishing returns. 
aalenik
67 posts
 

@AMG56 - Sorry for the late reply.  I don't visit these forums every day.

I get everything you wrote.  Like you, I appreciate live music and that is the sound I'm trying to achieve at home, essentially to enhance my emotional connection to the music. That has always been my goal, and that is how I got into this hobby.

The high-end gear, the cables and the tweaks are all a means to that end.  I wouldn't spend my money or time on any of this if it didn't result in the hairs on the back of my neck standing up.

I'm not wealthy and my system is relatively modest... by 'audiophile standards' (but IMHO it sounds more natural and more exciting than most of the fancier rigs I've heard).  I rarely change components, but I have made significant improvements by upgrading cables and a few other select tweaks.  (I say 'select' because many do nothing or even degrade the sound.) 

My only qualms are with people who shout "Nonsense!" or "Scam!" when they really mean to say, "I didn't hear any difference." or maybe even, "I'm skeptical, but I've never heard it."

aalenik
67 posts
 

Clearthink - Where do you get off calling Roger Skoff a liar?  Do you know him?  I DO, and he's honest as the day is long.  If Roger said he had that conversation, he did.

Fleschler - On the "audio jewelry" subject, I know from other dealers & distributors that there is a segment of HEA with tons of money and no interest in anything that does not look attractive (and expensive).

Good for them.  Most of those systems are poorly set up and sound mediocre anyway.  For the rest of us, there are 'bargain' components which provide similar performance at lower prices... in less exotic boxes.  Instead of complaining, just go find them.  Some folks on forums like this one can give you suggestions (but always listen yourself).

In fact, isn't that what these forums are for?  (Not to accuse people you don't know of lying. "Fake News" - Where did you get that from?)

fleschler
2,003 posts
 
Playmore.  Thanks for the support (and others).  As to the Pioneer, it's only an adequate player without the mods (six capacitors, of which some are power supply related, my engineer friend is the one who does the mods) and the A/C cable.  I bought six hoping for him to upgrade them all but he only did three (his business is GroverHuffman cabling), of which one is now owned by Oregonpapa.  Oregonpapa then installed SR blue fuses to further upgrade the sound.   Too bad I can't post an interior shot of the caps. 
More to discover