2. amps-preamps
  3. 136421-89400

Pre amps cost vs. value ... what I discovered last month.

Greetings all.

I’m a mastering engineer. www.magicgardenmastering.com . We use Acoustic Zen balanced cabling, highly modified Cary 211 FE tube amps, Bricasti M1 SE DAs and Joachim Gerhard’s Allegra speakers. TORUS balanced power comes 220 from the street. The room is excellent, and you would love to hear it.

For 15 years the pre amp/router was a Crane Song Avocet. I paid around $1800 for it.

Recently decided to try a couple of audiophile products in the pre amp stage and was shocked and saddened how bad they were. Yes, the studio designed Avocet has a relay click for each 1db step, and yes it has a rack mounted 2U body with a corded remote, but it’s clear folks are really getting taken to the cleaners on pre amps. The older and highly regarded Boulder 1010 (used price $5500), was just terrible, truly terrible. The new and fully broken in BAT vk-43SE (demo price $7500) was much better, but still had a cloudy tone as compared to the class A Avocet. Not sure if that’s the cap or the transformer, but it made everything less clear and more generic, more distant from the music.

That’s all. Happy listening.
128x128brianlucey
douglas_schroeder
3,281 posts
 
The mastering speaker system is using speakers with low end extension of about 50Hz +/- 3dB? 



auxinput
2,920 posts
 

Just to add some observations.  The Crane Song Avocent may be an older device, but I cannot see that it uses op amps of any type (unless they are to be used as assists in power supply or other circuits.  As far as I can tell from images, the Avocet uses fully discrete circuits (as it is labeled "Discrete Class A Studio Controller".

It's interesting that you did not like the Boulder.  I have never heard it, but I believe that it uses bipolar audio stages (as opposed to FET based).  Each has it's own sound, but bipolar is usually cleaner sounding. 

I have read that BAT equipment is nice, but it does sound a little dark.  That particular BAT preamp looks to be a fully solid-state FET based device (no tubes, which is unusual for BAT).  It has a seriously massive main power supply, which is great for bass and midbass response.  However, I don't see a lot of smaller capacitors and I can't identify where the gain stages are.  Anyways, interesting product.

brianlucey - I suspect many of your responses are due towards personal taste as well as system synergy.  Like everyone else here, welcome to the journey of buying and selling.  It has been a journey for me as I have learned what types of equipment I like and what I do not like.  Many people will agree with my results, but many will also disagree with their own preferences, lol.

For comments on "pro equipment", there are different levels of pro equipment.  Brian is obviously playing on the top tier of equipment.  If you look at "common pro equipment", you will actually find a lot of junk, such as anything Behringer (etc.).  Lot's of mid-level stuff.  You won't get to the top level until you start getting stuff that uses discrete op amp modules (such as MM-99 or JFET-993, etc.).  This is very expensive stuff.

Bryan - maybe you might look into whether you like more of a FET based sound or a bipolar.  The bipolar are usually cleaner (less distortion), but they can also be somewhat clinical/sterile at times.  The FET based circuits do add a color or texture to the sound which can be very pleasing to some people.  The Boulder 1010 is bipolar.  I suspect the Crane Song may be FET based.  The BAT vk-43SE is definitely FET based circuit.  Maybe look into one of the Pass Labs preamps (such as XP-30).  Pass likes to use discrete FET based audio stages.

auxinput
2,920 posts
 
I don't know if you're looking, but the other side of the fence would be something like the newer Krell Illusion preamps.  There is a used Krell Illusion with separate power supply up for sale at $7500 (which matches the BAT costs).  Fully discrete bipolar Class A audio stages (both input and output preamp stages) with full resistor ladder volume control.  Massive separate power supply unit.   Equivalent older model would be something like Krell Evolution 202 or Krell Phantom.  The Krell side of the fence will lead towards more resolution and transparency without adding the "FET" color/texture. 
brhatten
34 posts
 
BTW, my pre-amp clicks for every step up in volume as well... doesn’t bother me a bit since the sound is spectacular (VTL 6.5). 
brianlucey's avatar
brianlucey OP
142 posts
 
Appreciate the sane and thoughtful replies. I will go through them later but just a quick sample. Anyone or group who wants to bring over a balanced (XLR) pre amp is welcome to, just have to find the right day. I can’t go out of the DA for gain as I need a router to switch between MIX and MASTER and do volume offsets. Loud records are from fear, the human disease on the other end of love, there is no remedy for fear except for each person, in each moment. Modern records can sound good and I would suggest some of mine as examples of low dynamics that has punch. DR sounds old, bottom line, the music sounds dated. Unless that sound helps the artist to connect, it’s not going to happen. I’ve been playing with the much worshiped and I think not so great early release Steely Dan from 16 bit CDs and a little MORE compression, plus some harmonics from the chain can actually help those sound more live and real, less perfected and cold. Early CD mastering was lame. The Krell Illusion sounds like it’s worth a look, as are the others mentioned earlier like the Linear Tube Audio and Ayre. Yes most "pro" gear is junk. Pro is a sales term not a category. As far as synergy, yes that’s everything ... I would never want to use all one company for anything, the design / philosophical artifacts just pile up on top of each other. That’s not how we work in production generally speaking. Some mastering studios maybe but no one I respect. The cocktail of artifacts creates the palate and that is what we do, bring a palate to the table, a perspective, even in mastering. As far as "flat" this and "flat" that I am 100% opposed to such nonsense on 2 basic levels. 1. nothing is truly flat or truly neutral, there are many flavors of vanilla, there is no straight wire with gain, not even in a cable or a capacitor. 2. the goal of music is CONNECTION and ELEVATION of humans, not PERFECTION. We are not doing a science project here. The person engineering matters, we cannot be invisible and shouldn’t try. Stereo sound is not the live event, no matter what we do. Wrong goal. Quite the opposite from being invisible as engineers we should do what we were born to do, create, even in mastering. I don’t work from perfectionism or fear. I work from musicality toward physical/emotional/intellectual connection and elevation of the listener. That is what makes fans and money. Immediate impact and a timeless result is my phrase for what I do.I make an Invitation to connect... that completes the vision of the production team and removes the unhelpful energy from the offering. People want to love music, and they want to hate on it. My aim is to open the door to real listening.
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