Jazz for aficionados

Try this website Rok


    https://www.thefilmcsa.com/aimi19orbrca.html

On a 14 hr plane trip today so have a lot of time to write, but don’t know when or if this will go out.

I suppose that for reasons that should be obvious the more generous thing to do would be to ignore the judgmental and insensitive comments and characterizations of a personal nature. Comments that are not only unwarranted and totally off the mark, but that for reasons that should also be obvious (under the circumstances) are a window into the true character of those making them. And let’s not even get into the convoluted double talk. Why some here feel the need to stoop to making insensitive personal judgments about musical tastes is obvious... in the absence of substance of one’s own...diminish the other guy’s contribution. Sad. I see no purpose in participating here if I don’t remain consistent in the idea that BS re the subject of music should be pointed out. To be clear, I wouldn’t have an issue with this type of self-delusion if it weren’t accompanied by the unnecessary personal insinuations. In the absence of something really interesting to say, make some claim to some ephemeral ability to “perceive”. Give me a break. I guess I’m not feeling very generous; must be the airplane food 😝

**** we don’t listen to jazz (meaning you and I) we perceive it. By that, I mean all the generations of musicians that went into it, before the one we’re listening to, and I know Frogman can not understand that ****

What a bunch of cr@p! This from someone with a very limited scope of this music and who by his own admission was never interested in any music before Charlie Parker; nor much after hard-bop. And how ironic that it has been I who has for the longest time promoted
the importance of a historical perspective as a way to better appreciate one’s favorite time periods in the music and to appreciate other styles as well. “Perceive”? Right .......
Of course being able to “perceive” jazz must be the reason that O-10 has posted so much lame music. Not all of course, but enough disco and bizarre jungle music to make one cringe.

**** the main reason I don’t have much Louis Armstrong is because I considered him more of an entertainer than a musician, ****

What is amazing about this comment is the casualness with which it is made while being oblivious to the implications; especially since it’s author claims to be very knowledgeable about jazz.  An “aficionado”, you know. Like someone professing to be a climatologist while still not knowing that the earth is round.

**** Things haven’t been the same since you left ****

True. There have been a lot of unacknowledged expressions of concern for O-10 and his health since he left. Two additional observations: None of the expressions of concern were by the author of the above quoted observation. And guess what else was different until that same author (or reference to him) returned? There was not one iota of negativity nor bickering here.

Now, back to what really matters:

**** Question for anyone: Did Ellington know before hand, what Gonsalves would blow, during his ’interval’ at Newport? ****

Not exactly. No way does this question have a simple yes/no answer; music is far more nuanced than that. A musical giant and band leader like Duke Ellington, possessing such a highly developed musical acumen and knowing his sidemen as intimately as he did, might have a pretty good idea of how a player might shape a solo; or, that he would build it around a specific musical fragment (short melody). Oh, sorry....there’s that intellectual stuff again. Let’s see....let me try “perceiving” instead.......................trying.............................nope..............not working for me.

So, while Duke may not have known exactly what, nor all that Gonsalves would play there would probably be times during the solo that Duke would know where he
was going. Perhaps even exactly where he was going.

Players sometimes go through phases on a short or long term basis while exploring certain musical ideas A player might go through a phase when he might like to play specific note choices over certain chords. Like a chef, for instance, might go through a phase when he likes to use a lot of cinnamon. And this is just one example in the domain of harmony. There are just as many possibilities (or more) in the domain of rhythm. Paul Gonsalves had a pretty advanced harmonic concept especially for a player rooted primarily in the swing tradition. One of his favorite solo techniques was taking a short musical fragment and transposing it into different keys as the chord progression of the tune demanded. That fact alone would give Duke a pretty good idea of what Golsalves might play at any given point in a solo.

Think of it this way. What is soloing at its most basic? Improvised musical expression. Think about the writing or speaking styles of someone you know extremely well. Often, one knows what that person is going to say; and, certainly in the middle of a comment, where that person might be going.

Hope that wasn’t too much intellect(ual) for you. You asked.

Now, to my way of thinking it should be obvious by now that the reason I bother making these comments is not that I care particularly about what O-10 or Rok think about my musical tastes. What I do care about is the way that a certain mistaken idea continues to be promulgated that, while fine (if extremely limiting) for anyone individual, is used as a way to build up one’s own experience at the expense and judgment of another’s experience. The idea that knowledge, or having an intellectual ELEMENT as part of one’s listening experience will somehow and necessarily impede the appreciation of the emotional component in music is utter nonsense. This aversion to this aspect of the listening experience is a personal choice and may or may not be a product of one’s personality or may be simple intellectual laziness. I won’t judge the validity of anyone’s approach to the listening experience, and I expect the same.

Best wishes with your treatment, O-10.
And, btw, you’re welcome.





Sent from my iPhone

pryso, I enjoyed the short video link you posted up thread. I believe it could be from this DVD:
https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Summers-Day-Mahalia-Jackson/dp/B00003OSU4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=153...

frogman I don't know how you could write such a long post with the tiny tabs on a smart phone!...I guess I have chubby fingers. Anyways I have flown from NY to Tokyo no layovers which is 15 hours so I sympathize with you. However I was primed because I had flown from NY to Rio de Janeiro a dozen times or more before my trip to Japan.

" I won’t judge the validity of anyone’s approach to the listening experience, and I expect the same. "

I feel the same. However this is a public forum and people have a right to voice their opinions. That said I think if one dislikes certain music they should critic the music not the person who likes it.

I have chubby fingers too, pjw; maybe it helps that what I do professionally requires a lot of finger dexterity. Those trips to Asia are a little tough, but back on the ground now.

I completely agree with your comments. Not only should we feel free to express dislike of any music posted in a respectful manner, but its even better if specific details can be given for the reasons why. And that has, unfortunately, been the cause of a lot of unnecessary defensiveness and bickering here. For instance, if someone dislikes the music simply because the playing is sub-par and gives details why, the fact that the technical details can be provided are automatically equated by some with the inability to “feel the emotion” of the music. The person who can describe the technical elements or technical flaws is thought to be incapable of feeling the emotion (perceiving”?); ever. What a bunch of nonsense and copout. Sheer intellectual laziness and so unfortunate since it is just the opposite.