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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
glupson
7,842 posts
 
"let’s set up a lab and test these claims together in real time for everyone to witness".
Oh, my, bold rarely equals wise. Heroes are those who were lucky not to be harmed in their rush.

I stand by my statement that Tuneland and this thread should stay separated.

We are back to empirical testing lab from some weeks ago? Let me try again, what other testing would it be in this case? And how do we design the lab? Who is "everyone to witness"? Let's not forget that results should be reproducible by others.

Back to my NAD amplifier, whoever wants to believe it, thank you. Those who do not want to believe I did it, our lives will continue regardless. I "walked" anyway. It was really not worth much. Not exactly a walk across the Waterloo field, more like a stroll to the corner grocery store.

I did claim that I heard no difference. It was a claim and it is as firm as they get. No softer than Michael Green's claims that taking covers off does make a difference. Therefore, it is the truth and that is it. Because I say so.

prof,

Asking for measurements opens another can of worms. Some people believe that everything can be expressed in numbers (measurements of some sort) while the others think it is not necessary. Remainder has no opinion, cannot care less, and are on the sidelines. I still think that Michael Green's biggest mistake was to try to come up with explanations of things instead of simply claiming that whatever he does seems to improve the sound and stopping at that. I took a little break from here, the weather got nicer and I dedicated myself to observing real masters of their art doing their art (soccer championship) instead of arguing about the meaning of word "claim". Thanks for participating in that instead of me. I would have never guessed that such a simple word could become a stumbling block.

In the meantime, I sent an e-mail to NAD hoping to reach some engineer. I know it will probably not be anyone who had anything to do with NAD C-350 amplifier, but maybe they have some opinion on removing the cover. I am curious what is their view of the sonic benefits of it. I will report back once they answer.
glupson
7,842 posts
 
jf47t,

"Anyone who worked for someone else for only nine months and was let go then 20 years later appears on their old bosses thread on an audio forum making the statements you have chills me to the bone."
I do not want to participate in this two-century-spanning saga about who hired whom, but you are surely right about the above. Who would not be chilled to the bone? If someone worked for me for only nine months some twenty years ago and then came back with such energy and force, I would apologize for stepping on their toes too hard the first time we met.
jf47t
116 posts
 

"Asking for measurements opens another can of worms."

Of course it doesn't. The can of worms that keep getting opened on this thread are from the trolls making claims that their questions don't get answered. One of the tactics from internet trolls is the speed in which they pile on the Q&A sessions so to look like the one being trolled is not able to give an answer. But with someone like Michael Green the answers are available to anyone wishing to make the effort to do a proper study. In other words you picked the wrong guy to troll. The more the trolls here try to imply Michael hasn't done the more apparent it becomes that those people (the internet trolls) are fakes. The OP remains perfectly stated and relevant. It's showing the people that are "real" and those who are "fake". One telling factor to this is the anger. The ones on here who clearly became angry are trolls. The ones on here who kept demanding answers are trolls.

glupson your not going to be able to go back and rewrite the script here it's now documented. Not only is it documented here there is now a thread on TuneLand that has and will continue to add to the facts.


http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t440-talk-but-not-walk-an-audiophile-forum-case-study

At this point the best you can hope for is that people don't go to TuneLand and read the truth as well as compare the two threads.


jf47t
116 posts
 

"I do not want to participate in this two-century-spanning saga about who hired whom, but you are surely right about the above. Who would not be chilled to the bone? If someone worked for me for only nine months some twenty years ago and then came back with such energy and force....."

This is scary indeed!

Regardless of what you, MG, me or anyone else would do this type of behavior is nothing shy of creepy.

geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
glupson
I did claim that I heard no difference. It was a claim and it is as firm as they get. No softer than Michael Green’s claims that taking covers off does make a difference. Therefore, it is the truth and that is it. Because I say so.

>>>>Who cares? As I intimated previously your results do not comport with the many others, most if all with more, what’s the word...oh, yeah, experience, who got good results from removing the cover off the chassis, including your humble scribe and Ric Schultz of EVS and MG and one assumes a great many others. Your negative result is the one that proves the rule. 😛

In cases like yours where we have a lone wolf it’s customary to dismiss him as an outlier. No offense. You certainly have a motive to lie about it, which is another reason to ignore your results. Not to mention the other perfectly valid reasons why some folks just can’t get good results that I already specified. Sorry, Charlie, we want tuna that tastes good, not tuna with good taste. 🐬
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