Room correction, DSP for dummies.

I guess I walked into a debate between David and Bill (the ’other Bill) unwittingly. My concerns with whole system DSP (and I’ve never heard the Lyngdorf ) if that’s what’s being discussed are:

settings and adjustments- is this done entirely through electronic measurement by the device itself or do you, as the user/listener, tweak the settings to taste?
to what extent does digitizing the signal (including of an otherwise all analog source) compromise the sound?
are you limited by being unable to substitute key components if you adopt a solution that integrates processing and amplifier(s)?

Does an "add on" DSP device that allows you to integrate DSP into an otherwise conventional system fall short of the best that DSP can do, so that you cannot retain an ’unprocessed’ system if you choose to?

I was curious about the MiniDSP products a few years ago, but they seemed to involve more than I needed for simple bass management and I was reluctant to introduce anything between my line stage and main amps that could affect the sound in a negative way. I guess I’m not entirely out of the "purist" camp, though I recognize that at some level, all of this is "processed" to a degree, even in the analog domain....

A discussion of modern DSP would not be complete, IMO, without mention of DEQX. In addition (depending on model) to being able to serve as a preamp, provide remarkably transparent A/D and D/A converter functionality, extremely versatile and flexible room correction capability and equalization capability, and the ability to support subwoofers, biamping, and triamping, as far as I am aware DEQX products are unique in that they can bring any speaker that is not time coherent much closer to being so. And the great majority of speakers are not time coherent, including all speakers which have a crossover that is not first order (i.e., 6 db/octave). (Vandersteen, Thiel (at least formerly), and Green Mountain Audio are among a small handful of manufacturers of speakers which use first order crossovers).

That said, using a DEQX entails a very substantial learning curve. Also, taking full advantage of its "speaker calibration" (i.e., time coherence) function requires making close-up measurements (e.g., from a distance of 2 or 3 feet or so, depending on the size of the speaker) of the speaker’s response to test tones generated by the unit, with room reflections reduced to a bare minimum. Reducing room reflections sufficiently can mean moving the speakers to the center of the room for purposes of that measurement, or even better to outdoors. Room correction is performed subsequently, as a separate step, with the speakers in their normal positions.

I use DEQX’s top of the line HDP-5 model, and it took me several months to fully optimize its settings to my satisfaction. And that was with a relatively simple setup involving a single pair of speakers running full-range. Although I chose to do it all myself, at my own methodical pace, rather than utilizing the services of a "DEQXpert" via the Internet, who I understand can greatly speed up that process and presumably accomplish it better than many users would be able to.

For further info, and considerable additional detail on the experiences of a goodly number of members with DEQX products including me, see the following long-running thread:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/is-deqx-a-game-changer

Regards,

-- Al

Bill, the questions and queries were not contemplative...they are direct. 

The 'more' portion was somewhat addressed by erik_squires, one of which is all the other 'pieces' in the sound reproduction chain...does room correction also know what was "intended" by those designers (power supplies, sources, recordings, cables, etc.)?...did the speaker designer know which components, etc. the customer was going to choose to build his or her system? Etc.

In other words, (what all) is room correction divining?

the room correction assures your speakers sound as the designer intended in your particular space.

The speaker is now able to sound as it should without room editorializing and degrading.

the speaker is free to be what it was intended to be

I'm not against room correction or DSP, or other software based 'corrections.'  @erik_squires  position lines up more with where I'm at, on the topic.

My issue is with "sound as intended" and "sound as it should" which are remarkable statements, to say the least, and to this mind border on the incredible.

Remarkable statements for a remarkable product 🙂 All I can say is listen to a 2170 or a 3400 properly set up and you will get it. Simple stuff here IMHO. Plenty of rigs don’t sound that good, or as good as the designers intended because of poor speaker placement and room issues. Think of it like this. A talented chef prepares a wonderful tasting ingredient....perhaps a sauce. It tastes wonderful when used in well executed recipes, but even this spectacular tasting ingredient can be part of an awefull tasting dish when the total recipe just doesn’t work. The ingredient, while awesome, in the end did not produce its intended result....a great tasting dish. We listen to systems, not just speakers or amplifiers. The room is an ingredient. How speakers are placed is also an ingredient. Our gear ingredients. Many other ingredients. SOTA room correction helps assure several of the ingredients work well together so you are more likely to to have a successful total recipe.....a great sounding system. Room correction is your personal chef. Oh my, this last line is now coming back at me in the form of a question 🙂

Speaker builders have no doubt heard their creations in systems that did not sound as they intended. I am sure they have been mortified with the resulting sound...not as they intended. Builders intend their speakers to sound good in your home, not harsh, not dull, not poor.  That is what intend means.  Surely no designer intends a speaker to sound poor in your home? 

Ok, my brain is now tired as I tried to extract too much out of what in the end is a simple truth. I am most likely not smart enough to understand the deeper meaning of the questions. Most likely the case here. The OPs post is about DSP for dummies! I will go back to developing bacon flavors now...my real expertise!

OP: My recommendation is to buy a calibrated microphone, a miniDSP mic goes for $100 on Amazon, and down load the free Room Eq Wizard (REW) software and measure your own room. Based on that data, you could have a more meaningful discussion about what DSP can do to improve your room/ speaker acoustics.

I’ve done the measurements and it’s a lot of fun.  You can get a miniDSP equalizer for $200 and program it with the same tools you used to measure the room.  It works as advertised. My room/ speaker set up has some SBIR issues but DSP cannot fix a null.  In the end, I didn’t use DSP.  I did some room treatment (a more general solution) and was satisfied.