Thiel Owners


Guys-

I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!

Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
128x128jafant
First, thanks for the jostle of other phase coherent brands. It also seems that some ultra-expensive European brands are honoring the time domain. (Reminder: engage brain before responding) Cheers.

Regarding grille and grille frames - they, like other design elements, offer opportunities to address problems. Thiel did so from early-on.

Thiel's O1 had a reticulated foam grille. For the O1a, we formulated and sculpted the foam to be ultra thin on-axis and 1" thick off-axis, which attenuated the bounce wave along the baffle to reduce edge diffraction. The O1b sported an ALD (Acoustic Loading Device) - a sandwiched filter, attached to the grille which was nearly invisible on-axis, but further reduced baffle waves. The grilles were nearly universally derided, disregarded or discarded, even though they improved performance considerably. 

The O2 had an "ordinary frame" for a fabric grille, since we learned that audiophiles would remove it anyhow.

The O3 and O3a grilles just covered up felt blocks, etc. on the baffle.

The O4's grille was pretty sophisticated, incorporating a tweeter wave guide, woofer edge-softening profile and port impedance-matching flair. We attached it with serious goo which made it evident it belonged on and ugly when taken off.

The CS2 in the mid 80s got more serious as we increased our precision of acoustic measurement and understanding. The tweeter wave guide became more sophisticated; the wave launch profiles of all 3 drivers were supported by the grille frame, the fabric was engineered for transparency on axis and absorption off axis, and the outside edge was engineered to minimizetweeter diffraction. It was successful EXCEPT that Larry Archibald of Stereophile printed multiple critiques of the "harshness" of the CS2. When we all figured out that he used and measured them without grilles, he re-visited their performance, but never admitted his mis-use as causing his problems. He stated that Thiel had upgraded and mitigated the problems he had heard and reported. Hmmm. 

The CS1 series incorporated an even more sophisticated grille for wave launch and baffle vibration damping. 

Similar issues prevailed through the years, with the common thread being that users' preconceptions about the harm of grilles persisted. In the case of Thiel products, the grille was always an integral design element. They were in place during development, voicing and testing. Removing them may provide a more immediate on-axis connection, but problems are always introduced which degrade musicality. More recent models incorporate the wave guides into the baffle, and the grille frames are farther aft, minimizing harm when not used, or non-existent. Newest models use perforated or woven metal, which is more transparent.

One of my intended experiments employs wool felt on baffles. We tried that early-on to good effect, but opted for grille fabric and frame solutions as more cost- effective and good-looking. I'll try some soft baffle ideas on my CS2 2s.
tomthielThank You for today's Thiel Audio history lesson.  Hopefully your examples, as above, will bring out a few of these owners for models 01,02,03,04 and CS1. I always enjoy and find it all fascinating how the older designs made a gateway to the more modern. Whom designed model TT1 after the CS 3.7 ?
Happy Listening!
I'm always happier with a company designs speakers to be used with grills on.   This is because I'm not a fan of seeing the speaker drivers.When I see the drivers, I can't help but become more conscious of the process producing the sound I'm hearing.  The highs are coming from that tweeter, the mids from that woofer in front of me, etc.

Once grills are on the speaker becomes a nice piece of furniture in front of me around and between which the sound is occurring, but it's not obviously being generated by the speaker.  I find this much more conducive to the soundstaging/imaging illusion in audio. 


Also, for me the majority of speakers without grills don't look too great - you get a bit more of the made-in-shop vibe when you can see all the different colored drivers, screws etc.  (Though some can look nice).

Though when it comes to grills, I also much prefer that they not look like an afterthought, as on many speakers:  "Ok, here's a pair of grills you can place over the drivers if you really want to!"   An after-thought looking pair of grills - e.g. one that ruins the nice lines of a speaker by sticking out - can also reduce the aesthetics.


This is one reason why my Thiel 2.7s fit the bill for me in many ways.  They are designed to sound right with the grills on, so I don't have to see the drivers.   And they were designed aesthetically with the grills as part of the design - they are inset into the frame making for beautiful smooth clean, integrated lines. 
Prof - thank you for your appreciation. The "live with" factor was an integral part of our designs.

Jay - there are two periods of post Jim Thiel designs: the x.7s including the 2.7 and 1.7 and the MCS?.7 prototype. The physical CS2.7 was principally developed in-house by Kathy Gornik, Rob Gillum and Dawn Cloyd in tribute to Jim's practice of incorporating series 3 breakthroughs into the series 2 at lower cost. Part of that cost savings results from minimizing amortization of development costs of series 3 technologies when applied to the series 2. The 2s have always been bargains.
The electrical engineering was done principally by a Canadian consulting engineering company using the Canadian Research Council anechoic chamber and design facilities. I have been told but do not remember the name of that company. A few outside opinions were also solicited, but did not generate material contributions. Serious $6 figures were consumed developing the 2.7, leading to the need to sell the company. The twos had generally been somewhat "easy" since they benefited from the generosity of the threes.

After the sale things happened fast, but of material consequence is that Bob Brown of Boston-area upper mid-fi experience was brought in as consulting operations manager who brought in Steve DeFuria, a long-time Thiel retailer, knowledgeable insider and sales executive with various Boston-area upper mid-fi brands. Bob and Steve hired Mark Mason formerly of PSB and freelance designer for SVS. Mark determined that Jim's phase-time coherence was not important enough to merit the significant difficulties it caused. The new owners wanted to exploit the name and chose to pursue mass-market Chinese-made products.
The 3rd Avenue Series (TT1, etc.) were developed by Mark Mason with help from New Thiel's considerable in-house engineering chops led by Dennis Crosson. The products are commendable for a new market entrant; but the marketplace was flooded with very good ordinary speakers. They spent upwards of $10million doing the dance that many of us witnessed with sadness and chagrin.

Additional factors tied the hands of the new owners, but those remain behind the curtain until answers might come to light. Jim's copious lab documentation is nowhere to be found.

Thanks for asking.