2. tech-talk
  3. 135904-110926

Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Inna, btw it's nice talking to you. Not sure we've ever conversed before but this is nice.

"Michael, what are your preferences in music ? I suspect that you listen to a wide variety of different kinds but still ."

Yep, my listening covers a pretty wide range. I'm a genre floater. I get lost in whatever project or tune I'm working on, a chameleon. I've always been in the entertainment business or my family was and I tagged along, when I was very small, so I never went through the particular music type thing. My cousin is Doc Watson, my aunt and uncle had a private jet company for entertainers, so I grew up around musicians and actors. When I was old enough to go on tour I took advantage of it and soaked up many different types of music and cultures. Mick Ronson and Robert Shaw had big influences on me. And I spent time working on guitars at Guitar Works when they would let me. I didn't play so my work was limited to voicing the bodies.

Over the years I would get turned on to a lot of stuff because of music camps and different things I did in the business. Don't think I ever really met a music I didn't like. If you visit my facebook you'll see almost a daily account of what I'm listening to, short version. Oh and I was the acoustician for UMI which taught me a lot about the making of instruments too.

"And another question is about source components. Do you use Studer, Ampex, something else with master tape dubs, Simon Yorke, Walker, Technics etc. turntable ? I mean your reference not whatever else you might have to listen to for your clients."

Wow, that's a question for another book lol. Can you tell I'm trying to shortcut my answers? This kind of goes back to me being in entertainment. I am and always have been an audio sponge. I've probably done almost every job in the biz. I also collected a lot of sources from back to the Victrola days. Lets put it this way, I've own 5 stereo stores, 6 if you count TuneLand. I think I owned them for as much my own collecting fever as well as turning people on. For example while in Atlanta I had 2 stores, ran sound for In-touch TV show, ran tapes for Turner Broadcasting and ran sound for the Atlanta Symphony as well as the Jazz concert series. On top of that I was doing background vocals and Guitar Works. Makes my head spin now lol.

When you tape run you usually over time use about everything on the market. 2" for my 16 or 32, 1" for my 8 track, 1/2" 4 track, 1/4" full 2 4 and 8 track, cassette 2 and 4 track.

Turntables, I think at the height I had 27 up and running at one time.

Files, still just getting started. I cheat by getting feedback from one of my reviewer buddies and a couple clients.

Now for the shocker and I hope your sitting down. My reference source is a $29.00 Magnavox, models range, but based on the MDV100. I have 21 of them, and counting. Everything that comes in here gets put up against the Maggie. I don't like to beatup on products but the digital era screwed up bigtime when it comes to CDPs. I can rant about that if your interested. Sources are typically so over built that tuning this small, beautifully designed DVD Player frankly beats the snot out of any other source I use or bring in to tweak for others. If it wasn't so believe me I wouldn't be crazy enough to make that statement, but we have brought in almost everything possible and the results are the same.

Michael Green

mitch2
4,097 posts
 
Ok, door No. 1 - nothing.  

They are apparently made from Mpingo (i.e., African blackwood - which is thought to be musical because of the internal structure of the wood) and Gaboon ebony wood.  I can find no evidence of any "special sauce" inside of the discs.  However, the thought that turning them one way or another can affect the bass and treble is a bit mystifying.

Here are some interesting thoughts from one "reviewer",
I suspect that all the folks who participated in the original CES demo were "Shun Mooked." This is a psycho-acoustic phenomenon that occurs when you are in a room full of people who believe something WILL make a difference - and it DOES! It's akin to being the only non-committed voter in a room full of party faithful - by the end of the night you will be "a believer." The psychic force of all those committed brains makes you hear exactly what they are hearing. Or not hearing.
In fairness, there are other reviewers and folks who think the Mpingo discs are great.
inna
7,361 posts
 
I see. You don't want to scare your clients off with a true reference sound, you want them to have a better sound than you do. That will make them feel good both about themselves and their systems and you as a guide to a great sound. As a side fun, you are curious about how much sound one can extract from junky source.
But..this approach would not work with me, and I would not send you a Studer with dubs, along with cables and amp.

geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
Mitch, if you had a Mpingo disc in front of you you’d see there is obviously something inside. There is a barely perceptible circular cut out on the top side. The directionality of the Mpingo results from the grain of the wood. I would have thought that was obvious. 😛 anyway....Obviously, some people won’t have good results with the Shun Mook disc, just like for anything else you don’t really have to look too hard to find someone who can’t make it work. 😩 Psychacoustic. Lol  I used to tune my knock offs by ear. No biggie. The Shun Mook Spatial Kit is more difficult to tune since it has three count em! Mpingo discs mounted on a bracket. If one is unaware of how to tune them they would not work, they’d interfere with each other. It takes skill to find the effective places for the discs. You cannot necessarily follow instructions. Many people, I suspect, are all thumbs. 👍👍👍👍👍 By the way, I was never tempted to open one of the little buggers up to see what was inside but I heard from a very reliable source (RIP) who did. Hint: it’s not nothing.
bdp24's avatar
bdp24
9,959 posts
 
Referring to hi-fi as a hobby offends me. Music is sacred (well, some of it ;-), and to call the efforts taken to maximize it’s reproduction a hobby tends to trivialize our greatest art form. Hi-fi is merely a means to an end; it is of importance only in terms of how it allows us better access to music, not in and of itself. Just as the best musicians and singers perform in service to the music, so does the best hi-fi.
More to discover