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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
mitch2
3,972 posts
 
Ok, door No. 1 - nothing.  

They are apparently made from Mpingo (i.e., African blackwood - which is thought to be musical because of the internal structure of the wood) and Gaboon ebony wood.  I can find no evidence of any "special sauce" inside of the discs.  However, the thought that turning them one way or another can affect the bass and treble is a bit mystifying.

Here are some interesting thoughts from one "reviewer",
I suspect that all the folks who participated in the original CES demo were "Shun Mooked." This is a psycho-acoustic phenomenon that occurs when you are in a room full of people who believe something WILL make a difference - and it DOES! It's akin to being the only non-committed voter in a room full of party faithful - by the end of the night you will be "a believer." The psychic force of all those committed brains makes you hear exactly what they are hearing. Or not hearing.
In fairness, there are other reviewers and folks who think the Mpingo discs are great.
inna
7,296 posts
 
I see. You don't want to scare your clients off with a true reference sound, you want them to have a better sound than you do. That will make them feel good both about themselves and their systems and you as a guide to a great sound. As a side fun, you are curious about how much sound one can extract from junky source.
But..this approach would not work with me, and I would not send you a Studer with dubs, along with cables and amp.

geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
Mitch, if you had a Mpingo disc in front of you you’d see there is obviously something inside. There is a barely perceptible circular cut out on the top side. The directionality of the Mpingo results from the grain of the wood. I would have thought that was obvious. 😛 anyway....Obviously, some people won’t have good results with the Shun Mook disc, just like for anything else you don’t really have to look too hard to find someone who can’t make it work. 😩 Psychacoustic. Lol  I used to tune my knock offs by ear. No biggie. The Shun Mook Spatial Kit is more difficult to tune since it has three count em! Mpingo discs mounted on a bracket. If one is unaware of how to tune them they would not work, they’d interfere with each other. It takes skill to find the effective places for the discs. You cannot necessarily follow instructions. Many people, I suspect, are all thumbs. 👍👍👍👍👍 By the way, I was never tempted to open one of the little buggers up to see what was inside but I heard from a very reliable source (RIP) who did. Hint: it’s not nothing.
bdp24's avatar
bdp24
9,790 posts
 
Referring to hi-fi as a hobby offends me. Music is sacred (well, some of it ;-), and to call the efforts taken to maximize it’s reproduction a hobby tends to trivialize our greatest art form. Hi-fi is merely a means to an end; it is of importance only in terms of how it allows us better access to music, not in and of itself. Just as the best musicians and singers perform in service to the music, so does the best hi-fi.
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Inna

"You don't want to scare your clients off with a true reference sound, you want them to have a better sound than you do."

Well not really. It would be easier to show you if you and I ever tune together.

My reference systems don't have chassis. They sit in tuning devices so that I am able to get directly to the audio signal. I bring in components on a regular basis but to compete with my reference there's a lot of tuning that would need to be done. Let me give an example and then I won't pick on any other products so folks don't get mad.

Last year when getting ready for AXPONA we brought in several reference digital front ends to choose the one to take. After a long search we chose B......i, but it didn't even come close to the Maggie Mod, not even close. So we took a Maggie and watched the jaws drop. We have pictures of folks shaking their heads in disbelief. One magazine even described it as a car CDP cause they never saw anything like it. The Get Tuned Show Kids had a lot of fun. Since that show several folks have had me either do up a Maggie for them or I helped them tune the Magnavox they would get. It's only that one design though. The rest of them sound like cheap CDPs like one would expect. Of course the unit must be tuned to sound that way but that's what I do.

Michael Green

http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t332-tuning-cdp-s

http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t146-tuning-the-magnavox-dvd-player

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