Talk but not walk?


Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio

Hi Glupson

Thanks for your recent questions.

"I get the temperature part, but am surprised by humidity statement. How can brass be more affected by humidity than wood?"

I think that the audio industry (hobbyist included) would do themselves a favor taking a course that explains and has lab work on the Fundamental Forces. It’s a lot easier to learn the long versions of this stuff rather than discussing the short versions on audio forums when so many are trying to one up each other. I also think I shouldn’t have pushed the wrong button when I went to post my longer answer a few moments ago LOL

Oh well, my post was about the history of my discoveries of when I started to hear problems with the Audiopoint and what my process was in my own evolution of designing the cone and other important tools. I can get back to that version anytime but here’s a shorter one, sorry.

About a year into my distributing of the Audiopoint is when I first started to be bugged by certain problems. Once I started hearing it I began to think Yikes, this isn’t good but no one was complaining so the panic didn’t set in (yet). I’m like that with my audio. Once I hear it, and hear it repeated, it becomes that thorn in my listening side. This is what brought me to ditching HEA chassis designs and a host of audio product designs.

HEA products for the most part are way over built and very cramped. Setting a big transformer down inside of a metal box is crazy, yet a whole segment of this industry did it. When you set that big field creator down inside of a box of chargeable parts your making a landmine of problems.

While dealing with what I was hearing with the Audiopoint I found a few interesting facts. One the cone is directional, two the cone is a conduit for fields and three the cone was very reactive to environment conditions. Later my friends from Conn and King instruments were like Duh where have you been lol.

"I can imagine some oxidation taking place and changing properties, although I would expect that to be a relatively slow process."

Glupson take your thought there a step further. Materials are what? Programable. Metals do what? Attract fields, reject fields, reflect fields, pass fields’ info and be charged by fields. Listen to your system when it is very dry, then, compare it to the sound when it’s raining outside. It’s not just the humidity but the....charge in the environment that changes.

"Wood, on the other hand, swells and what not, when exposed to the water/humidity and effects I have seen so far can appear overnight, if not sooner."

Same with metal.

"Is there a secret in wood processing. painting, or something else, that makes wood less susceptible to humidity exposure than brass?"

I don’t think it’s a matter of less or more but a matter of what happens to your sound.

If you take the time and carefully listen to your system you will hear it go through four main listening cycles every day. You as an object go through these same cycles. You as an object with a brain and live body....you get what I mean. listening is a moving target not a fixed snapshot. the guys who come up and say their system always sound the same, need to take up golf or something else other than audiophile listening cause there’s not a truthful guy on the planet who has not been a part of system change, and the continuum of sound. It’s not a fixed quantity from us as humans or our systems sitting on a revolving planet in a moving system. It’s just kind of goofy trying to sort through half baked theories. Fun as it might be for some, stretching their egos to the max trying to gain a following, there’s talk and then there’s walk. And walk is motion.

Michael Green

Post removed 
Michael Green,

Now I am closer to some attempt at acceptance of brass being more responsive to humidity than wood, but not by much.

I can imagine metal being charged and that having some impact. Not that I completely understand, but that may be due to my limitations and I can see that someone could make a case for it.

However, metal (in our case brass) swelling and changing more than wood due to humidity is a little bit harder to grasp after a few decades of non-scientific experience with both. I mean, I have not done any experiment, controlled or not controlled, to measure outcomes of humidity exposure. Still, I do have anecdotal evidence to the contrary. I have had old wood windows swell after an evening shower enough to be much harder to open. I have never experienced anything similar with my cars, bicycles (that sucked every time, but because of a wet seat and slippery roads), or anything else made of metal I left in the rain or outside on a humid day. Cars always seemed to retain their size. Of course, I did not measure them so I cannot claim I am 100% sure, but still. I will leave it at that.

Even I agree that my system sounds different throughout the day. I do not give it much thought of why it is so, but it is so to my ears and I live with it. I, kind of, assign it to reaching the optimal temperature for whatever it is doing. It sounds better after a while, but I can tolerate it from the beginning.

I doubt many people would contest the claim that transformers placed in the box with other electronic parts can have some (presumably negative) effect on the function of those parts and, consequently, the final sound. The real reason they are placed in there is a very simple compromise. Sellers would lose 80% (I am making that number up, but I think it may be close to correct) of customers if they did not offer a cosmetically acceptable solution. Most of the people, even those who are willing to shell out many thousands of dollars for an amplifier, do not prefer to have too many wires and boxes laying around. For some, it is plain impossible due to children, pets, husbands, wives, design of the room, whatever. Why that simple fact always gets ignored, not only by you, is beyond me. From what I understand, manufacturers try to compromise by isolating transformers as much as they can. It may not be perfect, though. I am sure you know much more about that than I ever will.

Hi Glupson

Lol, you cracked me up with the swelling thing a little. I pictured all the guys here on the thread sitting outside in the rain listening and discussing the topic.

If you have time and a translation available to you, look at some of the audiophile forums from the far east. Metal and rubber corrosion is a major problem with audio products there.

An audio system really isn’t that far away from musical instruments as far as what affects what. Stereos go in and out of tune just like any other music producing item that carries an audio signal. I don’t look at the swelling of any instrument as a thing you want much of. As you mentioned early all of us can hear the cycles of listening change throughout the day. Some of this is us, some the system and some the continuum of time itself. How fast or slow something goes out of tune is relevant to the situation and the materials working, or not working, together as a whole.

The other thing sort of funny on this and other threads is how the posters dramatize things to prove points that really have nothing to do with listening to music at all. Like your bomb in the backyard thing or folks saying things with spins here to make their points, when all of this really comes down to common sense stuff. One that I kind of brought up earlier was this whole squeeze parts into a metal box and claim it will out perform something not in a box. These are basic designing flaws in the HEA paradigm that will sooner or latter catch up with the over build guys and kick them in the can big time, already been happening for about 15 years now even more. You know there are a lot of listeners out there who have felt ripped off by HEA after they experience simpler and more thought out designs. This is one of the reasons why you don’t see me getting upset on here. I’ve already done what they have yet to do, and as more people do and leave the HEA paradigm, then their friends in time follow suit and before you know it a whole gang of listeners leave the community of HEA brands.

I’ve got a system combo that will be going over to Malaysia soon that is a complete Tunable audio system. It includes everything. All you do is set it up and Tune it in. It cost less than one HEA component and blows the doors off of every big HEA system we have brought in in the last 4 years or beta tested at other places. And here’s the cool part, you can set this system up, put on a recording, if you like it great, if not, make a couple simple adjustments (similar to tuning a guitar) and your all set. This is the direction of the serious listener. Same thing with all these guys getting their room correction products. The hobby is actually getting sophisticated and before long in room listening will be bigger then it ever was. Check out the speakers I have coming out in 2019. They’re RoomTune Speakers. I have two markets I’m focused on. One is the combo setup I’m talking about and the other is the RoomTune system.

The RoomTune system is a lifestyle speaker system that uses the room as the speaker. It’s a speaker system designed to work with Digital Room Correction systems.

I know lol the self promotion police will be up to flame me shortly lol!

While they’re doing that listen to what I’m really saying. HEA has reached their crossroads, and it’s a good thing. We live in a different world than we did 25 years ago. Old school HEA is wonderful, especially 1995 and back. Then there’s the discrete HEA era 1995-2015. The discrete audio era lost ground, but during that time audio innovation overall advanced and advanced to the point where a room correction system now usually out performs your big buck systems. It doesn’t out perform the tuning purist but makes slaughter of these "One Fixed Sound" systems. Right now your seeing folks trying to correct their HEA systems with these processors, with fairly good results for the most part. For these systems though you still have some room and component problems, basically because many of the speaker designs out there are built to fight the room not work with it. That’s going to change and probably fairly soon and to a much bigger market.

Michael Green

Post removed