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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


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michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

bdp says

"MG says he’s happy to do Q & A, so ask the questions to which you desire answers. Let’s see if he will, conversely ;-), talk it like he walks it."

to which I say

Michael Green or tons of designers would be more than happy to do Q&As here. However MG and these other designers are not about swimming in troll infested waters. At the same time, answers to the questions I get here, I can answer them on the TuneLand forum avoiding the trolls. If Agon would get rid of trolling you would find a lot of industry folks come to these pages. I wrote this in an email to Agon some time ago. I think personally it would be a healthy thing, monitored correctly.

As I have said before, when the local stereo stores started going out of business in the 90’s, that was the beginning of designers loosing their connection to the end user through a 3rd person representative. This was a sad day for neighborhoods. Since that time a new paradigm has been in the making, not yet baked to the fullest but slowly evolving. I believe part of this evolution has been audio forums. It hasn’t always worked out, but has on some forums. As I have told Audiogon though, if the paradigm includes internet trolling these forums will fade into the archives along with this generation of HEA.

I’m very open to discuss with Agon if they are interested, but the one thing I stressed and still do stress is having a troll free forum. I have done this on both of my forums and I know other forums have implemented this as well on theirs. Audio Circle has pulled it off to a degree, but it can go even further so that everyone has a voice without discrimination. I even think trolls can have their own playground, and as time goes on can graduate into the general audio population.

If any would be interested in my suggestions I’m happy to give them, like I am happy to answer questions (troll free). Think about it. Do you have any idea how many readers of Agon would become "posters" of Agon if it was troll free?

Michael Green

blueranger's avatar
blueranger
719 posts
 
Hey Mike, just what tuning do u advise to get my SA-10 to play the beginning of "Ventura Highway to have more ambience and liveliness? Ping pong back and forth as you stated. Every TT I have had that I can remember (I'm 56) has been able to do that. The SA-10 is on a Billy Bags tandem rack on the top shelf. It has  Mapleshades isolation system 2 inch air dried maple and heavy brass footers, with rubber/cork supporting it, a VPI brick and 4 pouches of chrome steel ball bearings on top. TOTL Pangea power cord and interconnect. powered by a PS audio P1000 run in one of tbe 2 filtered outlets. The unit is perfectly level. I use a Bedini clarifier and a Herbies black hole cd mat. I keep the unit powered up 80 percent of the time. I don't want to buy any more cables or equipment stands. And I dont want to take the cover off my player because well because of dust. If you don't want to divulge any of ur methods here just email me an idea what you could do. The Marantz is the best by far of any CD player Ive been lucky to have. It gives and excellent presentation over 99 percent of the time. In my original post I only asked if there is a digital player or streamer that can play it with as much ambience as analog.Thanks ,Mike
uberwaltz's avatar
uberwaltz
13,381 posts
 
MG
I cannot say I disagree with the spirit of your " troll free forum " post but who decides who is a troll? Where would you draw the line between a troll and just a stubborn,opinionated hardhead?

Its a fine line to walk and an even tougher one to enforce, not sure the present moderation staff here are up for that.

After all the vast majority of posts removed are only done so because someone has reported them. Not because a mod member or some software tag has detected a violation of the spirit of the forum.

Just my thoughts.
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Blueranger

My recommendation would be to join TuneLand and start a thread on "Home Audio Systems". http://tuneland.forumotion.com/f3-home-audio-systems

From there we can explore your questions more directly.

Michael

michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Uberwaltz

If you look at TuneLand you don't see trolling, anywhere. That's because there is a common spirit of putting music, the history of music, people's systems and experiences first. For other forums removing trolling isn't that hard and once a few of the obvious trolls are banned it doesn't take long for the more mature posters to start putting the disobedient ones in their places.

On these forums, behind the scenes, there is a place called permissions. In that place you can assign where a person can go or not. Folks who get out of line can have their permissions limited. It would be actually easier to have the mods give permissions than having to make report judgement calls. As it is right now, the mods are listening to several sides of an issue with each making their case and the mod has to decide who to delete or not delete. Some forums have mods who come up and say "be nice now", then issue a warning, then ban. On a forum like this I would have levels of mods. One would be a peer mod. There are several members on here who would make excellent peer mods, you usually find them in the music section. These are guys who put listening to music above any of the other issues, and almost always are encouraging others regardless of their systems.

You can also divide things up. The greet and meet section is a place where folks can work out their getting to know each other issues. A lot of times on here folks don't get along only because they don't know each other. A greet and meet forum would be a place where you post your own system (with pictures) and give background.

Then you have the debate forum. This is where you go to discuss topics and give your point of view. The way I would monitor these threads is easy. You must give your name and profession. If someone has a strong opinion they should be showing who they are.

You then have your industry forums. Those get monitored by the industry members themselves. The industry member moderating the forum pays a monthly fee of $30.00-$50.00 to Audiogon for this right. These threads should have words and pictures.

The main thing here is to make an Audiogon community.

Michael Green

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