No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

Mr. glupson

Thanks. For an educated summery and for bringing this thread back to a civilized conversation. This mod wrestling with the industry hidden representative is so wrong.

I try to avoid a "one cable solution for all" as it is not the right engineering approach. Even your 2-3-4 suggestion is not proper. A 4m long cable must be of the double the cross section of a 2m long, to keep the same resistance. On the gauge table it is like going from 1 AWG to 5 AWG! The 2m would be a 3 AWG etc'. For those who cannot do with a short cable, and they must use a long one, the cable will get thicker. It easily can get as thick as 4x 0 AWG at some lengths.

I said loud and clear that the cable resistance is up to the amplifier (some speakers might be different, but most apply to the say: No matter what speaker you are using!). Different amplifiers would imply different cables thickness, even if we stick to a short 2.5m length.

Tube amplifiers have such a low DF that a home phone cords would do. As the DF rise, so gets the cable thicker (lower the AWG). When DF is 150 the cable you need is different than when the DF is 500 or even higher.

Some D class amplification, have extremely high DFs to exceed 5000! The more practical way to relate that (by the Amp designer help) is to say the actual DF is 1000. Still a relatively very high figure.

I'm not sure that the DIY is a solution for everyone. My friend in Vancouver, even I've told him everything he needed, he asked me to make him the cable. He was willing to pay me for the expanses and labor. I charged him only for my expanses.

I will repeat that it is difficult to work with such thick cables. I've been in that movie. My embracing for all cable's ending is a banana plugs. Spades are not as good, and so is the bare wire (not practical for an 8 AWG or thicker). I'm aware that some binding posts cannot have banana plugs!

The way to go from a 0 AWG cable to a banana plug, is with a short wire that will fit the banana plug and then to connect it to the thick cable. This wire shall be as thick as possible and so as short. It shall still have some length to enable the cable's strain relief. A 0 AWG cable is stiff. It is recommended to use a crimping method and not soldering. The entire end shall be protected and isolated with some shrinking sleeve. The cable must be reliable and last long. It also must be safe to use and never risk your equipment.

I do not think that the cable or the banana plug needs to be expensive or get into the definition of hi-end. This say piss's me off, as the 12-14 AWG ordinary cables on the market, are practically limiting a good sound system by 50%-80%. They still sold for a lot and called hi-end. A bit awkward. What wouldn't the maker say to get it sold for more $. I'd found that some materials are better to work with over others and do the job as well or better. So I gave up the obsession on the say and criticism, over practicality and good compliance to the engineering requirements.

So far, I didn't say much over the DIY solutions that some members of this forum came up with. They were creative and their cables do the job. They also ended up with extremely low cost. They might have some reliability problems on the long run. How your presidents say: "We will see. Something will happen". I assume that the average sound systems involved were of $10,000 range. A $60 cable cost is respectably amazingly low. From the comments of the difference in sound, the VFM is outstanding. You know the audio market. No one can upgrade that much a $10,000.- system for a $60.- investment. The only way to get better than that (VFM) is to place better the speakers. But that is a shame on who didn't done that already (-: Another way is to drink a nice glass of wine (-:

Mr. glupson

I'll try to describe the current state of the speaker's cable industry. After all, if we want to know where we are heading, we need to know from where we are coming…

No speaker's cable maker, have a tiniest clue of what cable we need. They also do not know why one cable sounds better over the other. They have no idea what are the electrical (engineering) values that make one cable better over another. An absolute groping in the darkness. For that reason, they "invented" a lot of preposterous pleas to cover the misunderstanding and ignorance: directional cables, cryogenic treatment, cooper purity, skin effect, burn in and more. None would hold a scientific confirmation or any evidence. No other field using wires got such an attention. From NASA and space programs, to the highest level of airborne and military equipment, life saving medical equipment or cell phones. Only audio cables did.

Most speaker cables are made thin (12-14 AWG) because it is easy to use with spades and banana plugs that are common in the market. They won't go thinner, as it would be ridicules but they won't go thicker as it is difficult to do. So we ended up with an average 12-14 AWG, regardless of what we actually need.

At the same time, speaker cables (unfortunately also other cables) were priced absurdly high. As this is the holy grail of the audio industry. I must admit that marketing went well and the industry flourishes. A ridiculous situation with poor consequences.

Now comes the worst part, after understanding that the speaker cable makers were fooling us since dome of days. A speaker cable is actually crucial for a good sound. A poor cable can ruin it and it really does. At a time the cable makers were title their product as High End, they were practically destroying a good sound system that could sound terrific, with a "so wrong" cable that would prevent up to 50%-80% of its potential. If they call a cable that kills 50%-80% of the sound a high end cable, what should they call a cable that delivers the absolute 100%?

Unfortunately it is not their cable, so you have seen some of those say on previous posts. Such words, are shallow and do not tells you the truth. They only cover over a mediocre or bad product wrapped with pretentious words.

To show you the difference, between a ready purchased, reputed cable maker cable and a cable that is DIY (less complete in structure) but of the right electrical properties, here are two testimonies:

1. Mr. Wilson, who exchanged a Transparent Audio Laboratory 14 AWG 12 feet long cable, that costs About $250, with a 0 AWG 2.5m long cable:

    

   "My initial impressions: It’s like having new speakers. The sound is pure and clean. Minute details are suddenly apparent. The range is amazing. Highs, mid-tones and a new bass that I didn’t know my speakers were capable of. I wonder now what I need the new … subwoofer for!

   It feels that for all these years my speakers were being chocked and suddenly they can breathe and have their full voice.  

   To say I’m happy about my new speaker cables is an understatement. I’m thrilled. Thank you for building these superbly engineered cables to unleash the full potential of my home sound system".

    

2. Mr. keppertup who replaced a 16 AWG 1.5n long cable with a 0 AWG cable of the same length, that cost him $57.00 ($45 plus shipping):

    

   "The results are stunning.  The amount of undistorted energy filling the room, is jaw dropping.  I keep turning up the volume to levels that previously irritated my ears, and experience no irritation.  In the modified lyrics of B.B. King, “The shrill is gone.”  My wife is hearing new detail in cuts she has listened to many times before".

 

No other components or placement were involved, only one speaker cable over the other. This kind of testimony reflects my say of a maker so called "Hi End" speaker cable, replaced with an unlabeled cable that delivers 100% and not only 20% or 50%. I would grade those testimonies as 10/10.

This may not be that dramatic to all. If those testimonies were on the upper side of the scale, Mr. conradnash had a experience like 7/10. Not bad at all for that kind of investment.

I look at it, as I'm holding in my left hand, the speaker cables industry, with all that history and tell and my theory and cables made accordingly in my right hand. This is a clue of where we are heading, and from where we are coming.

Let me share a thought with you. When anyone starts saying no one else in an entire industry has a clue, but he and he alone, then that person has lost all credibility. It is not reasonable or logical to suggest that you alone possess the knowledge and integrity needed for correct speaker cable design. You are saying only you have that knowledge and integrity. Only you!

That is a remarkable thought and perhaps so remarkable as to expose your personal shortcoming. We all have shortcomings and yours has just been exposed more clearly than ever before in this thread. You must see the absurdity in your proclamation that you alone have the needed integrity and wisdom? I hope you can see and own it. A measure of humility would go a long way here.

This industry has many brilliant minds. Yes, many who hold advanced degrees, have personal integrity and a sincere passion for extracting the best sound possible from a stereo system. You are not the sole person with such a resume and righteous motive.

You seem like like a smart and well educated man. In an audio world full of ideas I and others are opened minded enough to consider and try out your idea. That has not changed for me. However what has changed for me is my assessment of your wisdom and perhaps grip on reality.

b4icu
No speaker’s cable maker, have a tiniest clue of what cable we need. They also do not know why one cable sounds better over the other. They have no idea what are the electrical (engineering) values that make one cable better over another. An absolute groping in the darkness. For that reason, they "invented" a lot of preposterous pleas to cover the misunderstanding and ignorance: directional cables, cryogenic treatment, cooper purity, skin effect, burn in and more. None would hold a scientific confirmation or any evidence. No other field using wires got such an attention. From NASA and space programs, to the highest level of airborne and military equipment, life saving medical equipment or cell phones. Only audio cables did.

>>>>>>>What a drama queen! In the first place you act as though all cable manufacturers are colluding or choreographing some sort of conspiracy designed to trick young naive audiophiles. But that is far from the truth since cable manufactures - in reality, not your paranoid fantasy - tend to develop and evolve their own theories and manufacturing processes over a long period of time based on their own experience. They rarely agree with each other. Many cable makers employ cryogenics, but some don’t. Most cable makers probably don’t control directionality. And there are many differences in purity and type of metal conductor among and within cable makers. You appear to be, judging by your own words, the poster child for anti audiophile naysayers.

Further, there is no requirement for “scientific confirmation,” as you call it. The most obvious mistake in your reasoning is that audio is the only field that is interested in how cables sound. capish? So you can throw out all the other things, military, NASA, hospitals, whatever. Follow? If you told the military or NASA they must use uber thick cables as you suggest they would laugh you out of the office.