2. cables
  3. 140503-78269

Skeptic or just plain hard headed

So I purchased a pair of Morrow Audio phono cables. These are the PH3 with the Eichmann connectors. Wanted to start there to see if MA cables will be a viable option for my system.I think my story is not so unique to others who have purchased MA cables. So no need to go into the hu hum of burn-in in regards to MA cables, and how things sound bad at first, then gets better,  then excellent...yada yada yada. I know the story about this product.  I simply am one who is not a believer in electronics break in periods, or battery packs on cables, etc... Regardless of what side of the fence you are on in regards to that Im NOT trying to start that debate again please.. Anyway. After reading several reviews of the MA cables and understanding that most agreed that the cables needed a substantial burn-in time, and that the cables would not sound its best until this happens I decided to give them a try. Thinking ok lets get a jump on the burn-in period (if the concept is true). I paid for the 2 day burn-in service from MA. What I didn't expect is that when I got the cable it would sound as bad as it did in comparison to my existing name brand cable (not getting into that either, not relevant). I thought well the cable might not quite be up to snuff with all this talk about burn-in (if its true) but not that much of a difference.  I mean as soon as I dropped the needle on the record I immediately heard a profound difference in sound stage and clarity degridation. Needless to say this cable was destined to be returned to MA for a full refund and my thinking was "they are crazy if I am going to trade my cable for this cable" So I decided to give MA a call to setup the return. Talked with Mike Morrow (very nice guy by the way) and we had our differences in what I should expect out of his product. Now my Mother always told me that I have a hard head.. I heard that growing up all my life, and when you couple that with skepticism it makes a pretty, well lets just say not a very fun person to have a debate with lol. However Mike insisted that if I return the cable that I would be missing out on the fruit they would bare after 400 hours of break in. 400 hours??? really!. Oh at that point I was really ready to return them. I told all my friends "Mike must be nuts" (no offense Mike) no way am I going to wait a year to hear what this cable is capable of, AND I do not have any way to expedite the process...at least I thought I didn't until I found an old sound bar I don't use anymore with analog inputs. Ok I know you pro MA and  pro cable burn-in folks are chomping at the bit. Im almost done. Take your hands off the keyboard for just a few more lines. 

So here is the deal to be fair I am going to be open minded about this because Mike really made me feel like I would be missing out if I return the cable without a proper burn-in (great salesman), and since he had such conviction I now think I have to test this thing out right??. Now I know that there are testimonials out there about how the MA cable improved over 100s of hours in their system, and that they are now "blown away". However can you really hear a profound difference in a cable you play in your system over 170 hours or so?  I would think a gradual difference would be harder to detect. I mean my system seems to sound better to me everyday without making any changes. Is it because of  continued cable and electronics burn in?? maybe. Or maybe its just my brain becoming more intimate with the sound of my system. Well this test I'm doing should reveal a night and day difference from what the system sounds like today with the cable pre burn-in if there is any merit to the notion. In regards to does it sound better than my existing cable that is yet to be determined. I think my goal now is to prove or dis-prove if cable burn-in is a real thing. This whole idea has evolved from if it's an improvement or not over what I use today. We can discuss that later.

I now have the cable connected between a cd player , and a sound bar with a CD playing on repeat. The disc of choice for this burn-in is rather dynamic so it should be a good test. At the end of 16 days (384 hours) I will move the cables to my reference system and do about another 20 hours of additional burn-in to compensate for moving the cable. This will put a total of 452 hours of burn-in on the PH3. When I put this cable back in my system I sure hope it sings because this is a lot to go through to add a cable to your system. Mike if you are right I will eat crow and will preach from the highest mountain top that you are right, and that cable burn-in is REAL.  For me anyway the myth will be considered busted or reinforce my belief that cable burn-in is a bunch of BS. 

For those who will argue the point of cable burn-in I fully understand the concept, and I don't plan to get sucked down that rat hole and I won't argue that....yet because at the end of this test I may be in your camp and I don't want to have a steady diet of crow so for now I will remain neutral on the subject until the test is complete.  However I will be totally transparent and honest about the results. So not trying to make anyone angry as I know beliefs about audio are sensitive subjects, and rightfully so this hobby is expensive and I like you have a substancial investment in this. Just trying to get to the truth. I also understand that cable burn-in may actually happen when you consider it from a scientific perspective, but the real question is can you actually hear the difference.  

I will report back to this thread in 17 days from today (need at least one day to evaluate) with the results. 

happy listening!!

-Keith
barnettk
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@prof 

you know when I first read your post on my cell I have to say I was a little taken back. Honestly I considered the possibility that you were actually trying to insult me on an intelligent level. However after being able to sit down and actually read it without distraction I get what your saying and its not insulting at all. As a matter of fact I consider it pretty reasonable.  I try not to reply to something like this out of emotion and actually try to understand what a person is saying and be as opened minded about it as I can.  All good points you make and I am thinking your speaking more in general than directionally. So the only part of your comment I will speak to is: 

"But if your goal is to truly determine if you have in your hands sound evidence for cable burn in, with a mind to skepticism questioning, THEN you should realize the inherent faults in your current evaluating method for doing so."

When I composed the first thread of the post my goal was to see if cable burn in had ANY effect on SQ of a IC. However I admit I was venting a bit on the fact that a company sells you a product with a set return period and then tells you that in order to fully achieve that products capabilities it will take one a year or so  (2 years in maybe in my case) to fully benefit from that product , which will then take you outside the return period. Now taking into account that before this I did not believe that cable burn in was a real thing in the first place. Not being cynical, or even doubtful at all. I simply did not believe that it would make any difference. That belief was born out of pure ignorance honestly speaking because prior to this experiemnt I will admit that I did not understand fully the function of the various components that make up an audio cable. I am man enough to admit that. So my thinking on the matter from the  start was a based on OPINION, not doubt or cynisism and I took the same side as others who don't believe burn in matters (kind of like follow the leader) without doing the proper research and experimentation on my own.  So IMO this is pure skepticism, and nothing dark, or deeper about it. Period.  Once I started working through this is when the education process started for me.

 So back  to your comment on my evaluation of the results of my test.  I am very in tune with how my system sounds regardless of what you or anyone else may thing I know when I hear something different in regards to how my system sounds. I did not need to do a blind test because it was just really not that close. The cable did sound better post burn in, simple as that. I tried to be as transparent, and honest as I could be with this. Do you really think that I would put myself out there like that and say this whole cable burn in is BS and ridiculous, go through all this to only come back and say I was wrong?? The burn in period did improve the cables performance. I admitted that. Im also admitting that after allowing the cable to sit unused for another period of time that the cable lost some of its SQ.  I don't think its a bad product. I think it's more that this particular cable is just not a good fit for my particular setup. I am deciding the return it simply for those reasons. Thats no knock on MA. I think I was very careful to not bash MA in any way (just in case thats what you meant by "the power in our bias"). Or. Maybe you mean that the power of or bias can and will influence our percived outcomes. To that I say "Im not buying it" in this case. So while I agree with some of what your saying I disagree that I could not properly come to my conclusions using the method of evaluating this experiement. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that. Thanks for the constructive criticism. I really appreciate it.. honestly  not being sarcastic. 

-Keith

barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@geoffkait 

"Geez, these demands for cable manufacturers to burn their cables in are a little bit late. Throbbing Gristle TG Audio burned in their speaker cables, interconnects and power cords for 30 days prior to shipping and shipped everything in anti static bags. Too bad more folks don’t follow the right sheep 🐑. What’s next, demands for fuse manufacturers to burn their fuses in prior to shipping? Are speaker manufacturers now supposed to burn in their speakers? And what about amplifier designers? And what of CD players?  Are these the same manufacturers who display brand new equipment at CES? Have they not heard of burn in? OMG! Saints preserve us! Maybe the best thing to do in these stressful angst filled times is take the bull by the horns and do whatever you think needs to be done, and not wait for the industry to catch up to audiophiles. "

Good point and I agree. What is the answer. i think it boils down to what a person is willing to accept when they purchase a piece of gear. I have tube gear that I knew would not sound its best until a certain amount of time passed with use. I accepted that because I knew I would have that equipment for years to come. Even some of my SS gear.  I accept that. This will be different from person to person. Some people are more patient with certain pieces of gear the other pieces of gear I think. At least thats how I think about it anyway. A cable... come on.. Im not waiting no two years for it to sound good. So with cables I am taking the low road, and simply returning it if it does not sound satisfactory out of the box.. But hey thats just me. You make a good point tho about where is the line. I bet if you ask 100 people you will get at least 75 different answers. 
prof
3,480 posts
 
Thanks for the considered reply Keith.

As I said I’m absolutely not trying to declare, or convince you, that you heard no real sonic difference with your burned in cable. I was only raising points to consider if you are really trying to get careful perusing the truth of the matter. It seems you are in the “If I thought I heard an obvious difference I couldn’t have been mistaken” camp. That is of course your prerogative. But that conclusion really does rely on ignoring the power of bias.

I’ve been there. I had a very high end ac cable that I was positive changed the sound of my system when hooked up to my DAC or CD player. Everything sounded smoother, more lush, less hash, less bright, more transparent in to the recording. It was just....OBVIOUS! It was so obvious that I noticed a darkened rolled off character that started to make me question if I even liked my system with this power cable. When something makes you go from “I love the sound of my system” to “this is so different I don’t think I actually like it,” that’s so obvious why even question it, right? If I were in the camp of “my ears are always right” I wouldn’t question for a moment that the cable altered my system. Like you have not.

But....in the quest to put my finger on what was happening I had someone help me do a blind shoot out between this high end cable and my regular cheap stock AC cable. It turned out that once I couldn’t see or know which cable was in the system
I couldn’t hear any difference at all! There was just nothing of those obvious sonic traits I attributed to the cable there to cue me vs the sound of the stock cable.
It was absolutely head-spinning to experience this encounter with the power of sighted bias. A learning experience.

And unless someone has ever done it, or is inclined to test his perception this way, he will usually take the view “well that all may be interesting and apply to YOU but it doesn’t apply to ME. I KNOW what I heard.”

btw, blind tests don’t always fail to support audible differences. Often enough they support them. In my case I’ve correctly distinguished DACs and CD players, for instance.

Anyway, again, peace be to whatever way you wish to go about testing gear. No one needs to turn their high end hobby in to a science lab.

Cheers.

barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@prof 

Intersting. Ok well now you have me curious. Not doubtful :) but curious. So early on in the post I had made arrangements for 3 others to participate in this. My wife who does not care one way or the other. She only cares about "how much did you pay for that" and will it work in our homes decor. My Youngest Son who is in college and also in the music business, an audiophile friend of mine who I can explain what im listening for, then allow him to make his own judgement, and Me. So now that you have planted that seed I think its only fair to complete the comparison at least to that level. I mean the truth is what we seek right? Plus I have not returned the cable yet, and I still have the recording I made. Its a little crude of an A/B test but I think it will suffice. This has been going on for a month so what the heck. I know i'm right but now that you said what you said I probably will have regrets and be up at night thinking about it :) 

See we need people like you to call these things out and challenge us to be thourough regardless of what we think we know. I really do mean that. I guess we can now add stubborn to skeptical, hardheaded, and inpatient. darn it. It seems im learning more about myself than this freaking audio cable. I will report back and post the outcome in the next few days.  I am going to put the cable back on the "burn in" device I came up with for a day and by weekends end I will give the short version of the results. I promise it will be short this time.
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@prof 

Oh and by the way. To be fair and to your point. Im going to have my Son blind fold me and try to fool me with his cable swap to see if "I" can actually hear the difference between the two cables. How about that? Then i'm going to tell you what I already know :) 
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