Why not horns?


I've owned a lot of speakers over the years but I have never experienced anything like the midrange reproduction from my horns. With a frequency response of 300 Hz. up to 14 Khz. from a single distortionless driver, it seems like a no-brainer that everyone would want this performance. Why don't you use horns?
macrojack
the word Phase describes a relationship it can be applied to anything really

Weseixas, Phase and polarity have very definite meanings in electronics. Just because phase has different meanings in different contexts does not mean you can use it however you want in a scientific discipline like electronics and be correct. In electronics phase has a single meaning. To say things are in phase means they happen at the same time. Out of phase means the time relationship between two signals has changed. One is occurring later in time with respect to the other. A polarity inversion means what was negative is now positive and vice versa.

When you put an audio signal through a crossover there is a phase shift at the crossover point. Some frequencies are shifted in time. No polarity change of anything. Phase dispersive as Almarg described it.

Like I said before, even though it is very common to call a polarity inversion at a speaker out of phase this is technically incorrect. There has been no timing change, we have only inverted the polarity. It is common because for a single frequency a polarity inversion and out of phase 180 degrees gets the same result (see below) but just because it is common usage does not mean it is scientifically correct. We're also not dealing with a single frequency in audio.

We say that the sun rises in the east and moves across the sky. Is this scientifically correct even though everyone says it. No, the earth rotates, the earth is moving, not the sun.

At the end of the day does it really make any difference if we say speakers are out of phase? In that context no, since everyone does it so we all know they mean the leads were reversed. The problem arises if you try to expand your knowledge of electronics and continue to confuse the two terms.

Please see the link below which says exactly what I just said. Notice the author points out that polarity switches on audio equipment are sometimes incorrectly labeled phase switches. This is exactly the same error committed when we describe switching speaker leads as out of phase.

Almarg said, "A polarity inversion is the same thing as a 180 degree non-dispersive phase shift."

It may appear that way on a scope for a single frequency but if you have a complex waveform consisting of more than one frequency you get different results. Two scenarios

(1) Take 2 signals of equal amplitude and the same frequency that are in phase...

...polarity invert one and sum the result you get complete cancellation.

...phase shift one signal by 180 degrees and sum the result you get complete cancellation.

Same result but for a different reason.

(2) Take 2 equal signals consisting of a mix of 20 hertz and 100 Hz all the same amplitude in phase....

.... polarity invert one and sum the result you get complete cancellation.

.... phase shift one signal by 180 degrees...well... here is where you run into a problem. You can't phase shift them both by 180 degrees because the periods are different. a 180 degree shift of 20 Hz is 25 milliseconds and a 180 degree shift for 100 Hz is 5 milliseconds. You can't phase shift them both by 180 degrees.

Conclusion... phase shift and polarity inversion are always 2 different things even though under special circumstances you get the same result. Sorry I got a bit long winded. Phase/polarity confusion is a pet peeve of mine.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=91427

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Herman: Take 2 equal signals consisting of a mix of 20 hertz and 100 Hz all the same amplitude in phase....

.... polarity invert one and sum the result you get complete cancellation.

.... phase shift one signal by 180 degrees...well... here is where you run into a problem. You can't phase shift them both by 180 degrees because the periods are different. a 180 degree shift of 20 Hz is 25 milliseconds and a 180 degree shift for 100 Hz is 5 milliseconds. You can't phase shift them both by 180 degrees.
You can shift both by 180 degrees if you implement the phase shift via non-dispersive means, such as by inverting polarity! :)

I am in agreement with what you have said about how the terms "phase" and "polarity" are best used, and should be used. My point was simply that it is understandable that the term "phase" is commonly used in a loose manner.

Best regards,
-- Al
I disagree with Duke, cant always agree ;) While complex steep slope designs do have there place. If driver alignments correct and transducers horns etc are a match in other aspects. Than a low parts count simple network can have a sonic advantage[subjective since many times they measure worse]. If mating horns to standard woofer than Dukes correct. Pretty sure Old Doc Edgar would agree with me on that thought I just read a post on audioasylum where he mentioned such and Ive experimented for over 14 years with this. And Duke you would be surprised at the short listening distance Ive achieved great integration at with massive horns. Hybrid horn designs have been used in such a way in studios for decades does surprise me that many still stand by the large distance for horns since this isn't so unless loudspeaker design calls for this distance to integrate. Much easier cheaper to just say sit 10-15ft away then to attend to why this is so and optimize design. Horns can and have and continue to be designed and used for near field or monitoring use. Small rooms have and continue to be used by Japanese horn types. I could and did use my Altec A7s at 6ft distance after horns where adjusted at full angle. Worked very well. I listen to a massive 4 way front horn in my office as I type this I'm only 7ft from them. This is where I converged them to sound best. And its not shouting honking colored, trebles world class,bass pressures are present even at low levels with out bloat and full of bass detail lost to conventional designs. This isn't rocket science if some yahoo research designer in WI can pull it off. I'm sure it can be done by others. But I know WAF, large profits, hard to sell loudspeakers or other items that are not similar to others in design and appearance, this gets in the way of proper design and end performance and can handy cap most consumer products,the more mass-market the more similar,the more compromised. This is well known to any product designers and affects audio design as much as anything else.
I suppose if one wasn't interested in waveform integrity, then driver integration would be less of an issue.
phase shift via non-dispersive polarity inversion

I'm going to remember that so I can completely confuse somebody the next time this topic comes up :>)