Hear my Cartridges....🎶

After the earlier FR-7 and FR-7f, the final version FR-7fz came with an advanced nude LINE-CONTACT diamond pressure-fitted to an aluminium cantilever and cost an incredible 120,000 Yen in 1984.

The FR7fz was only 80,000 yen in 84. By comparison my Dynavector Karat Nova 13D was 150,000 yen in 83 as was the Sony XL88D, both of which have been auditioned on my TT. The Karat Nova 13D remains my reference. The most expensive FR7 was the "f/c" at 100,000 yen.
http://20cheaddatebase.web.fc2.com/needie/NDFR/FR-7fz.html

I think the Palladian is a mismatch with the SAEC WE8000 - it is at the top end on the recommended tracking weight and cartridge weight, too much energy for knife edge bearings. Would be interesting to hear the Palladian in the same arm as the FR7fz, ie on the  FR66.  There appears to be mistracking on the 1st album with the WE8000/Palladian combo.

Thanks for the clarification on the FR7 Dover....
I didn't know of the FR-7fc but note that is has a CONICAL STYLUS instead of the LINE CONTACT of the FR-7fz....
Have you ever heard one?
What about it do you think, could make it different to the FR-7f and FR-7fz?
And why.....if this was the 'ultimate' FR-7.....did Ikeda-san produce the FR-7fz as his final Fidelity Research design?

I've heard the Sony XL-88D in direct comparison to the XL-88....
And I was tempted to acquire a Karat Nova 13D after reading your thoughts years ago.....but luckily, your warnings about the particular sample I had in mind, saved me from that possible disaster 😱

Of course I tried the PALLADIAN IN THE FR-66S and it did sound slightly better than in the WE8000.....but that's primarily because the FR-66S is the better arm 🤗
Contrary to your thoughts on knife-edge bearings handling the high-energy of LOMCs.....I find that the WE8000 is more comfortable with LOMCs than with the high-compliance MMs.
There is an interesting development in the 'uber High-End' with its adoption of the vintage double knife-edge bearing SME3012R tonearm as the BEST arm for all LOMC cartridges.
Read this THREAD from What's the Best Forum and you can see where users prefer it to even the SAT tonearm....and that's with modern LOMCs like the Colibri XPP, AirTight Supreme, My Sonic Labs Sig. Gold, Lyra Atlas and Etna  and all the stone-bodied Koetsus.

Thuchan loves the double knife-edge bearing SAEC 506/16 for his LOMCs and loves his WE8000 even more...😎

I re-listened to the first track with the Palladian and agree that 2/3 the way in....there appears to be distortion but I think it's mic overload or at one point....it's my fingers touching the microphone 🙃

@halcro
Thanks for the feedback, I’m pleased my rantings saved you from potential disaster. The Dynavector Karat Nova series are obstensibly defunct. I know from personal contacts directly with the factory that they ran out of Karat Nova 13D generators for rebuilds around 2002. I was graced with good fortune some years later when they agreed to rebuild mine for the third time on a one off basis. This has been great because the last rebuild they did for me sported a microridge stylus which has pushed the performance/transparency way beyond my Ikeda Kiwame & Decca levels. It’s sad because when this goes - its done. Unfortunately I have noticed several Karat Novas for sale in recent years but they have clearly had a non standard cantilever/stylus. The telltale sign is usually the cantilever which sticks out a mile compared to the original which is tiny and is barely seen below the body. I have been contacted by some folk to verify Karat Nova’s and have followed up with Dynavector directly in Japan but they are too embarrassed to even answer. Beware the "prototypes" being sold on Yahoo Japan.

The diamond cantilever on the Karat Novas has a Y shaped yolk at the end into which the stylus is glued. It is possible to retip a Karat Nova but the chances of the yolk breaking when removing the original tip is very high.

The Sony XL88D is in the same category, one piece diamond cantilever cannot be retipped.

Final Audio also commissioned a version of the XL88D from Yoshimura, there were 2 iterations =, one a full diamond cantilever/tip the other a 1/2 length diamond cantilever/tip mounted in an aluminium sleeve.

Like you I am puzzled by the FR-7fc model being the most expensive FR7 yet a "conical" stylus. Syntax has one and rates it at the top ofthe FR tree. It appears to have been targeted at the vintage record collector. I know that Isamu Ikeda was a bit like Van den Hul in that he produced a lot of one off variants of the FR7 for record collectors or specific musical tastes. I have seen for example FR7’s optimised spicifically for early stereo Jazz. Sugano likewise.

I have been following your cartridge postings - they are great. I have the Glanz MFG61 and was interested in getting a flavour of the 610 you have.

Re the 3012 - yes I have been folowing that thread you referred to. They like the SME3012R which has a higher mass stainess steel arm tube compared to the 3012 Series 1 & II. In my view the SME has a charm and musical presentation that is compelling but to my ears is not the most transparent arm available by some margin. So if someone prefers its musically to other arms I would not disagree, however I like to hear everything possible in the groove. One of the issues with vintage knife bearing arms is that due to the offset angle of the cartridge, and the non offset vertical knifebearings, the forces on the cantilever try to rotate the arm, effectively trying to lift one side of the 2 knife bearings. Added mass helps. Ikeda, the designer of your FR7fz eschewed the use of unipivots for his low compliance cartridges and knife edge bearing tonearms along with jewelled bearings which he regarded as fragile sounding.
I have a 3012, - it sits on the shelf in my study.

The previous owner of my Final TT had many arms for review in the 80’s. I know he tried the SAEC407/23 and found it to be lightweight sounding, lacking bass definition on a wide range of top end cartridges - both high and low compliance. Of the cartridges tried the Sony XL88D was the least affected by this wispy attribute. It is a medium compliance MC cartridge. I have not heard the 8000. You might want to try your XL88 on your SAEC.

I am a great believer in arm/cartridge combinations as a unit - hence why I still have Dynavector/FR64S/Naim Aro/Eminent Technology ET2 arms and several other arms which I keep in rotation, simply because finding the best arm for each cartidge I have is one of those itches you have to scratch.

@dover 
I'm pleased you've been following (and like) the cartridge comparisons...😀
Are you able to easily hear the differences from the YouTube videos?
What about the differences between the LOMCs and the MMs?
Do you think there is a 'generic' difference in sound or presentation.....and if there is....do you think it's worth the enormous pricing differentials?

I'm interested in your thoughts on this latest comparison between the 35 year-old Ikeda designed FR-7fz and the modern tribute by Brakemeier...?
And of course....I'm eagerly awaiting Frogman's inimitable assessment 🧐
I also have found there are arm/cartridge synergies....
For instance....the WE-8000/ST does not allow high-compliance MMs to give of their best, but sounds sweet enough on MCs.
Great idea of yours to try the Sony XL-88 in it...👍 

The Dynavector DV-507/II...surprisingly.....sounds brilliantly with virtually all the MMs I throw at it. That's why you see it used so prominently in these comparisons 🎶
Yet it doesn't 'shine' with the few LOMCs I've tried.....
There are however.....two (or three) arms I've found which are 'universal'.
The Copperhead and FR-64s/66s seem to allow ALL the cartridges I've tried in them, to deliver their best 😘
Quite special.....

Hi @halcro 
Yes, differences are audible. At first I used Mac Air no headphones, but changing to iphone earbuds was more illuminating and in some instances changed preferences. I dont like headphones on my head, hence the earbuds, but I have started listening to your posts with Music Hall debe headphones I got for free - apparently they retailed for $200. 

Re the aforementioned 3012R thread, I own the Hillary Hahn album "Retrospective" that was used for some of the comparisons and in my system the resolution is way beyond what I could hear via the posted videos - the most graphic example being just before the Max Richter track commences I hear the movement of the seated audience as they shuffle around in their seats, this is completely missing on the videos posted. So there are limitations as I would have expected in posting videos, but the comparisons are still informative.

Regards MM's and LOMC's I'll keep it short. I prefer speed and resolution of LOMC's however there is a big caveat. I'd rather have a good MM/MI than a cheap MC with aberrations. Also I think that good MC phono stages with openness, transparency are few and far between, and in this instance a good MM/MI into the MM input can yield more musical results. Having said that I do quite like MI's - Garrot Decca is an alltime favourite. I really liked the London Reference you posted. The Glanz MFG61 is very good - its  Moving Flux - and can hold its own with good MC's in my system. I also have a friend who for years used $300  Grado's in a megabuck system, his theory was throw it out once or twice a year and you are good to go -  listening to music was always enjoyable. I also have heard the full range of Soundsmith including the strain guage cartridge a few years ago when Peter Lederman visited NZ - to me his moving iron cartridges are very muscial at all price points. I own a Victor X1 with original cantilever & stylus and I find it impressive but tiresome to listen to - I think the expression is too saturated if you are into photography. For years I've had Shure V15vmr & vmxr - they work well in both my ET2 and Dynavector arms. 

I agree with you on MM's with the Dynavector arm. My Shure V15vxmr & vmr worked exceptionally well on this arm.  Fwiw I revisted this arm before Xmas and it is currently in its final rebuild stages - I have altered the angle of the sub arm and pivot to stylus so I can run Baerwald as standard and the cartridge is dead straight in the headshell, in line with the vertical bearings.  It took some effort to work it out but basically if you remove the rear bolt holding the subarm you can change the angle of the sub arm. By triangulating the pivot to stylus/offset angle I was able to set it up so that if you use the standard Dynavector overhang gauge you have perfect Baerwald every time. This requires the ability to adjust the mounting position on your TT. My test results were superb hence the rebuild including rewiring to finish it off. I drilled and tapped a third hole for anchoring the rear of the sub arm for stability (replacing the orignal rear screw). Not for the fainthearted but great improvement over Stevenson.

Re the FR7fz/Palladian - on the first track it was ups and down. To my ears the Palladian has a much more open soundstage particularly in the vocal area, more articulated bottom end. What bothered me on this track was I found the upper mid lower treble "pressured" on the Palladian and get the impression I would not listen to music much with this combo.

On the second track its like the musicians are giving different performance - her voice is plaintive with the Palladian, on the FR her voice is fuller more robust. Going back and forth with the instruments again you get a different view on how they are playing - to me there is a huge difference. Which is right I do not know because I wasn't there, but I prefer the FR for its musicality overall and sense of ease. (subject of course to the limitation of my headphone set up).
If I was second guessing HP of TAS I would summarise the FR as wonderfully engaging and the Palladian as fatally flawed in the upper mid - or is it that Direct Drive showing its archilles ????.  To be continued........

Palladian on the FR/Raven would reveal all. 

Will be interesting to get Frogmans diagnosis.