Increasing gain for your vinyl front end when pre-amp doesn't quite have enough juice


Hi Folks, just wanted to get your thoughts on what route you would go if your pre-amp (I’m talking about a normal pre-amp, not phono preamp) doesn’t quite have enough gain for very high listening levels for my turntable set-up. Now, on my phono-pre amp, there is a setting for maximum gain (schiit Mani) up to 59db, but the S/N ratio takes a hit and goes down to 70db, however, it does pump out the needed volume. What about the idea of putting in a good (inexpensive headphones amp/preamp - one of those $99 guys - like schiit Magni, JDS Labs Atom or Monolith Liquid Spark) between the phono preamp and the regular preamp? Does this have the potential of producing the needed gain while at the same time not degrading the signal too much (perhaps not as much as full gain on the Mani?) Just wanted to see what you all think. To me it seems like less items in the signal chain the better, but if it has a higher S/N ratio could be a better option? (with the added benefit of listening to vinyl through headphones, which I’ve never done before.)
bstatmeister
@yogiboy The ">10 volt" maximum output spec of the Saga means that it is capable of putting out more than 10 volts before it will clip, when its active mode is being used. (In passive mode there is presumably no practical limit to its maximum output voltage). The output voltage it will provide at any given time, though, **if its volume control is at max,** will equal the input voltage provided to it increased by its gain. And in this case the gain of 0 db means that the output voltage will equal the input voltage.

I’ve seen several instances here in the past in which very large preamp output voltage specs (e.g., 10 or 20 volts or so) have misled people into thinking that is what the preamp actually outputs, rather than representing maximum capability before clipping.

Looking at the specific numbers in this case, the 42 db gain setting that was originally used on the phono stage (which is typical of gain settings that are used with moving magnet cartridges) corresponds to a voltage multiplication of 126 times. When the cartridge is putting out the 4.5 mv it is rated to put out under the standard test conditions the 42 db gain setting will result in an input to the preamp (and an output from the preamp if its volume control is at max) of 126 x 4.5 mv = 0.567 volts. Since the power amp only provides balanced inputs, it will interpret 0.567 volts provided to it in single-ended form as 0.567/2 = 0.28 volts. That is less than 1/4th of the voltage required to drive the amp to full power, **and will only occur with the volume control set at max** if the cartridge is putting out 4.5 mv. (Although the peaks of some recordings can cause the cartridge to significantly exceed the 4.5 mv it is rated to provide under the standard test conditions).

The bottom line here, as I see it, is that phono stages are generally designed with the expectation that they will be used with line stages providing significant gain. And in this case the line stage provides the same gain as a passive preamp, namely none, which will result in exactly the issue the OP described with many and perhaps most cartridge/phono stage combinations. So IMO the root cause of the problem should be fixed, before other changes to the system are considered.  That said, though, it does seem possible that the 48 db setting of the phono stage could prove to be satisfactory.

@noromance Thanks for your comment.

Best regards,

-- Al

@almarg 

Just for my edification only

How did you know or calculate that at 42db gain you would get a voltage multiplication of 126?

That seems like a very useful calculation to know based off a known gain.

Thank you
IMO - With a combined total of $500 new for the phono pre and line pre, a high noise floor is the penalty.  Increasing sensitivity or gain will still expose it.  A higher output cartridge at those same listening levels would require less gain, lowering the noise floor.  
@uberwaltz,

I'm sure there are online calculators that can be found which when either number is entered will provide the other number. But I do that calculation manually, using a hand-held scientific calculator.

As you may be aware the ratio of two voltages, expressed in db, is:

db = 20 x log(V1/V2)

where "log" is the base 10 logarithm.

So to convert in the opposite direction, from db to the corresponding voltage ratio, I divide the number of db by 20, and then raise the number 10 to "the power of" that result. (For example, 10 raised to the power of 2 = 10 squared = 10 x 10 = 100).

In this case:

42/20 = 2.1

10^2.1 = 126 (rounded off to three digits).

Best regards,

-- Al