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Ahhh--Problem solved. Adding a REL sub-bass unit...

I'm wondering how many audiophiles have given up on loudspeakers preamturely, or have gone down the rabbit hole of cable swapping to "fix" an issue with their speakers.  

I grew up hating subwoofers and home theatre.  I still haven't come around fully to home theatre.  I've warmed up though.  I've had my own issues with otherwise great loudspeakers, including a pair of Klipsch Forte IIIs.  I was very frustrated as I'm feeding them from a respected tube integrated, I've tried them with a 300B amp, and I've toiled over positioning.  

The issue that I was having was the mids and highs were dominating in my room--despite the size of the woofer and passive radiator. Some recordings were just too bright.  Sometimes I felt the speaker, however "alive" and dynamic was not imaging well, needed soundstage help, and so on.  

I hate to say the REL T9i I threw in the mix today is a panacea because there's always stuff to tweak.  Yet I have experienced this before with a Sumiko subwoofer.  Adding one to the mix and dialing it in so that it's barely audible has brought everything into focus.  Everything is more relaxed and energetic at the same time.  

I'd say that the REL is a room tuning device above all.  I have a larger room (I think it's 15 wide, 24 long and 10 high--in feet).   I'm not sure how much I'd have to spend or what different choices would solve this otherwise.  From a guy that used to reject subwoofers out of hand (my bias came from the 90s home theatre craze) I think that they might be necessary in the lion's share of systems with the lion's share of speakers.  To say, "you don't need a sub" with speakers might be true depending on your room, but I also think in most situations you are missing out on what they can do for so many criteria that are not necessarily in keeping with adding bass--e.g. soundstage, focus, imagine, fullness, taming treble, etc.). 

Finally, I really wish that I could try some other brands as many audiogon members recommended so many respectable names.  I ultimately went with REL because of its philosophy, my similar experience with a Sumiko sub (within the family of REL or somehow related), and the high frequency input connections. 
jbhiller
ieales's avatar
ieales
1,201 posts
 
RELs don't do it this way, they are designed to pick up where the mains drop off.
That, my friend, is nonsense.

If the sub has controls, the user chooses where to integrate. No two rooms or systems are identical. Move a complete system from one room to another and it's a whole new ball game.

Most of the time it is done terribly.

It's important to get a sub that has a similar 'signature' to the mains. Tools like REW help immensely.
bstatmeister
537 posts
 
" That, my friend, is nonsense."

Well of course you can tweak your output and set the low pass frequency on the REL to get a good integration with the main, but no load is being taken off the mains (as far as the amp is concerned) using the high level connection - which I believe is how the RELs are meant to be set up. Mains will keep running per usual and the REL will fill in the low end (Am I right?) With regarding your original statement I would say if you are truly taking a load off the mains, then you will be preventing some amount of Low freq from going through the mains in the first place (like with a high-pass x-over between the pre-amp and amp). Am I wrong here?
ieales's avatar
ieales
1,201 posts
 
I said "I like 1st order high pass on the main amplifier" - that means that you roll the low end out of the mains.

A single capacitor in series with the amp input works beautifully.

bstatmeister
537 posts
 
If you do this with the REL you are not using the high level speakon connectors, no?
astewart8944
499 posts
 
RELs are specifically designed to have the mains run through their entire frequency range. REL's manual highly advises to only use the high level speakon connector because it performs the best in that way. (I have tried REL subs using the high level connector and not using the high level connector.) This does not mean the REL doesn't provide flexibility. But it does mean it is designed to fully integrate with the mains by taking its timing cue/signal from the same amplifier was the mains, without deriving its power from the mains' amplifier--the concept being that the mains amplifier allows the REL subs and the subs to be "colored" with the same signal. The RELs allow the user to crossover from 30Hz to 120Hz, to select "0" or "180" phase and to control volume/gain. REL recommends running their subs at the lower end of the crossover range and at a  relatively low volume. I'm currently running a three REL "swarm"--it works really well.    
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