Speakers under $50k that rival $200k+ speakers?


Curious if there are any used or new (less likely) speakers out there that rival flagship speakers like Focal Grande Utopia, Rockport Lyra, Marten Coltrane Supreme 2, Magico M6, Raidho TD 4.2 or D4.8 etc?

I'll throw out a contender. If you look on ebay and the used market you can sometimes find a Von Schwekert VR 10 for around $18k CAD and from what I heard it can rival many TOTL speakers like the Grande Utopia. Do you guys have any thoughts?
smodtactical

@smodtactical, Maggies needing "a nice big space to sound good" is only partially true. They, like any and all dipoles, have to be a good distance from the wall they are in front of. What that distance is, is a matter of opinion; in a recent posting on Audiogon, Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere stated outright that the distance should be no less than 5’. I said the same a few months ago, and one Maggie owner reacted by saying that was an over-statement, that people are now saying it just because everyone else is saying it.

I can’t speak for everybody else, but I (and, I believe, Ralph) say it because you want the sound from the rear of the panels to reach your ears no less than 10ms after that from the front of the speakers. Two sounds coming from the same direction less than 10ms apart in time are perceived by the brain as being part of the same acoustic event. The rear wave "smears" the sound of the front wave. It also creates comb-filtering, a concept too involved to go into here. The panels don’t HAVE to be 5’ from the wall; it is the 10ms delay that is important---any way you achieve that is fine.

My preferred loudspeakers since 1972 have been dipoles, and I’ve had them (magnetic-planars, ESL’s, ribbons) in ALL kinds of rooms. In my opinion, the further from the front wall (that behind the speakers), the better. There is one hardcore Japanese Maggie lover who came up with a room-positioning technique that got nicknamed "Limage"; he proposes bringing the panels almost to the center of the length of the room (about 40% from the front towards the back), and placed almost touching the side walls. That of course requires a room longer than many have; if you want to be 8’ from the panels (a minimum, I would say), and want the panels to be at least 5’ from the wall behind them, and the Limage technique demands the panels be 40% down the length of the room, how long must that room be? I’ll leave the math to you!

I would say that if you have a room about 14’ wide and 16’ long, you have enough space for a pair of Maggies. Put each panel 18" from its’ side wall, and the panels 8’ apart (18" for each side space, 18" for each Maggie---assuming it’s the 1.7i; the 3.7i is 24" wide, and 8’ between the panels adds up to 14’), and 5’ from the front wall. 5’ from the room’s 16’ length allows you to sit 8’ from the panels and 3’ from the rear wall, all totaling 16’. If one dimension has to be sacrificed, make it the length. Sitting closer to the back wall will require that wall be treated with sound-absorbing panels (you’ll be too close to it for diffusion to be an option), but that is better than positioning the speakers closer to the front wall.

Dipoles can, however, be put almost right up against side walls, unlike monopoles. Their front-to-back dipole cancellation creates a figure-of-8 radiation pattern, creating a null (little sound) to either side of the panel. In his recent demonstrations of the new flagship MG30.7, Magnepan’s Wendell Diller did just that with the bass panels, positioning them about a foot from the left and right walls. When you do that, the tweeter drivers should of course be on the inside edge of each speaker, closest to each other.

Maggies also need to be toed in towards the listening area, not just because of off-axis high frequency drop-off, but to bring the speaker’s drivers into time alignment with one another. Then there is the matter of the acoustical treatment of the room. Because of dipole cancellation, side wall reflections are less of a concern than with monopoles. But the front wall (again, behind the speakers) is MORE of a concern. Diffraction of the rear wave---the random "scattering" of the sound reaching that wall from the rear of the panels, is preferred by many dipole users, though not all.

Short version: Maggies need room to breathe, no matter what anyone says. High ceilings help a lot too.

The open secret is that most good speakers of any kind also profit from breathing room!
Thanks for the thoughts on maggies, going to try to hear them.

Any thoughts on wilson maxx 3? Thx
@smodtatical 

I have 20.1 Maggies, opted for the older model because I preferred the sound of the true ribbon tweeter and I wanted to bi amp them and use room correction with my Mini DSP. I have a very large room with cathedral ceilings and they sound drop dead amazing now but I’d did have them in a studio apartment, if you can believe it, that was 13ft wide and 25ft long with a half wall in the middle.

I had them three feet off the back wall and they provided a wall of perfect sound. Did they look big for the room? Sure but they disappeared from view when I played them. So I would argue that they sound as good as any speaker in any environment and that is in great part to their even wave of sound produced by the panel. Reflection issues are nullified by the near field listening situation you would inevitably be in by having them in a smaller room. 

They sure are a wow in a small place when someone walks in and sees them towering over them. 

Just another comment on their impact. I supplemented the subsonic area of music in that studio with tower stereo subs which was plenty. In my large room I added two more subs to utilize room correction and I bump them up for movie watching as it adds a little excitement. My wife had a friend over for the holiday and we watched a movie, during the opening scene it switched from a serene scene to gun shot car crashing in a split second. The sound was so immediate and pummeling from the Maggies and subs that my wife subconsciously jumped off the couch and ran away. Those people who say Maggies can’t rock don’t know how to set them up correctly with subs.

The music is so magical that comes out of them, It’s so pure and clean. Her friend said it sounded better than live! 

Good luck on your quest. Remember in speakers and a few other things, size does matter. :)


I don't think the hypothesis really exists because even with Maggies, amp budget is huge (think 50k+ for SOTA) and requires subs which are hard to integrate. Apples and oranges.