What percentage of audiophiles use a sub ?

Yes, having a cello sound like a cello certainly does make sense, and in that case, a cello does sound more authentic to it's natural sound when (well-)augmented at the low end.

The lowest note on a cello is C2 which is about 65 Hz. That doesn't require a sub unless your recording has noises that include something other than from the bow on the strings.

The problem with many speakers is their response is ragged in this region due to room acoustics and speaker placement issues. Those issues can be addressed, but the answer isn't automatically a sub.

My case is a bit extraordinary in that my subs are integral to the speaker design and the speaker itself. The midrange driver handles above 100hz, and the integral subs are 10hz-100hz. So indeed the 65hz frequency of a cellos low notes is changed by turning my subs on and off. Previous to this I've integrated subs into my system crossed over much lower (in the 45hz range). There also, it seemed to make a difference to me in how the cello and instruments occured that reached similar lows that are NOT necessarily included in the spectrum covered by the sub. Sorry that I can't explain it beyond that, but that's what I recall hearing. I certainly admit that I could be influenced by expectations. The mind is a powerful thing.

My case is a bit extraordinary in that my subs are integral to the speaker design and the speaker itself. The midrange driver handles above 100hz, and the integral subs are 10hz-100hz. So indeed the 65hz frequency of a cellos low notes is changed by turning my subs on and off. Previous to this I've integrated subs into my system crossed over much lower (in the 45hz range). There also, it seemed to make a difference to me in how the cello and instruments occured that reached similar lows that are NOT necessarily included in the spectrum covered by the sub. Sorry that I can't explain it beyond that, but that's what I recall hearing. I certainly admit that I could be influenced by expectations. The mind is a powerful thing.

I don't know that your situation is "extraordinary" as there are a number of speaker systems that are designed from the ground up with a sub. However, I think the general gist of the discussion has been toward the question of adding subs to stand-alone speakers.

As for a lower crossover point, keep in mind that there is rarely a brick wall at a particular frequency. If your sub accurately crosses over at 45 Hz, it is almost certainly putting out a noticeable amount of sound one octave (90 Hz) and even two octaves (180 Hz) above the crossover point. The amount depends on the respective slopes of high and low pass filters involved for the speaker and sub respectively. (And, even if a sub crossover has extremely steep slopes, that in itself introduces another set of problems to deal with.)

I sold stereos back in the days when most amps had tone controls and it was extraordinarily rare to find a customer who did not like the change in sound that came from nudging the bass and treble controls up to 1 or 2 o'clock.

Whether or not this is the effect you're experiencing is hard to tell unless you can compare your system side-by-side with a live cello (to continue the example in use) or perhaps use some RTA analysis of your room response with each configuration.

Ultimately, your only question is "are you satisfied?"

BTW, Jax,

You asked about room position and the 80hz suckout. My understanding is that this response dip is usually due to 1/4 wave cancellation and is a function of the speakers' distance from adjacent walls. Subs can be placed flush to the wall which increases the frequency of the cancellation and reduces the severity of the effect - usually making it fairly benign. So unless you're willing to put your full range speakers right against the wall, changing the speakers' placement within the room is unlikely to do the trick.

Marty

Misstl - I only meant "extraordinary" in that the crossover point is probably a full octave higher than most standalone subs would more likely crossover at. Highly satisfied with my system, but still struggling with the room.

I've also included comments that reflect my past experiences with integrating standalone subs. Again, I've felt whether or not the range of the instrument dropped to the depths the sub was capable of, the sound occurred to me as different from without the sub on some occasions when I took the time to actually compare. Again, expectations could have come into play there. I've also had some struggle with integrating subs well, that made me want to scrap the whole thing. I don't think it's particularly easy.

Given the lack of the brick wall that you described, why wouldn't that be clearly understandable that such an effect were possible?

Marty - I have EchoBusters Phase 4 bass traps (discontinued I believe), in each corner behind my speakers, as well as some diffusion and absorption panels. They've made some audible differences, but where the peaks and dips are concerned, hardly any in the major suckout region.

Given the lack of the brick wall that you described, why wouldn't that be clearly understandable that such an effect were possible?

The question is not whether it is clearly understandable, but what does one do about it?

There are multiple complexities at work. Not only is there the selection of the crossover frequency and slope between the subs and speakers, but one also has the issue of phase interaction since the speaker driver will be in a different physical spot than the sub. The sub and speaker may be additive at one frequency and subtractive at another. Move the distance between them and that may change.

The room's interactive nodes are a related, but separate issue.

Since there are multiple variables in play, what helps fix one problem may aggravate another. Hopefully that gives a bit of insight as to why some sub integrations are more successful than others.