Thiel Owners


Guys-

I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!

Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
128x128jafant

Sad news that Roy Johnson, speaker designer/proprietor of Green Mountain Audio, has passed away.

Aside from the loss to those who knew him, that's one less Time/Phase coherent speaker on the market.  Not many passive T/P speaker brands left (Vandersteen...and?...)

Apparently, like Jim Thiel, he took a fair amount of the knowledge of the designs with him.

It looks like the slack will have to be picked up by active speaker designs, more of which are doing time/phase coherence via incorporating DSP.
prof,

Bryston is well into active speaker development. I wonder if they might be persuaded to go the T/P route for future speakers.

Just a thought

George

The difficulties of T/P are substantial and the prevailing wisdom from Canadian Research Council, Harmon, etc. is that the ear-brain doesn't care. We here lean toward the opposing opinion. And I am personally convinced that T/P as executed with first order slopes is worth its considerable effort.

Andy pointed out that the coincident driver eliminates the upper frequency lobing, plus Jim managed that inherent dispersion problem quite well via very low cross points. A seated listener at 8' or more distance gets a properly integrated wavefront, although the summed energy into the room has some potential unevenness. But I suspect that Thiel's polar patterns would hold their own against Von Schweikert and others who manage T/P via high order slopes.

I can't decipher whether Magico and other high-rollers are really dealing with T/P. It seems that such measurements aren't often included in reviews, or such products don't submit to reviews which do consider T/P. Lots of folks are using 4th (24db/octave) slopes to produce zero phase, non time-aligned hand offs. Zero phase means 360° (one cycle) revolution, so the signal harmonics are separated from the fundamental, but not completely scrambled. 4th order, whether active, DSP or passive does introduce pre-and post ringing and time smear at the XO point. Minimum phase is a term of art to describe phase and time in natural alignment considering deviations from flat amplitude response, as in crossover slopes. The lead and lag components add and cancel, producing no ringing or time smear, producing an added output with flat amplitude and phase with no ringing - allowing time alignment via physical offset.
Vandersteen and Thiel were chasing the same goal. Meadowlark seemed similarly aligned, but the only product review I saw was an early model, which didn't quite do what it claimed. Does anyone here know whether Avalon or other highly regarded speakers worked in the T/P domain?  

Avalon has never been T/P, as I recall.
Neither Magico.  They don't claim to, and Stereophile measurements show they aren't trying.
Dunlavy and Meadowlark were true time/phase correct speakers (although, in a Stereophile review of a Dunlavy speaker, the designer hedged whether the crossover is truly a first-order filter). Vandersteen is pretty much the last one standing and RV has really achieved something special with his carbon drivers. If he can ever bring that technology to a real world price point . . .

Avalon is not time/phase coherent. A top priority was avoiding distortion from out of band break up. The original Avalons (designed by Charles Hansen, Neil Patel, and Jeff Rowland) did this by using steep filters, low XO points, and small midrange drivers. The 3-way Ascent had a 2" titanium midrange. IMO, Jim Thiel was able to control, if not eliminate, out of band ringing by using small midrange (3.5" in my CS2.4 coax) or the wavy diaphragms of the X.7 models despite the slow roll-off filters.

None of the megabuck speakers I know of are time/phase aligned (certainly not Magico). That said, some of the best systems I’ve heard had speakers with steep filters. The TAD Ref 1 and Vivid Giya are standouts in my experience. I hope to soon have another listen to some megabuck speakers and compare their sound to my modded 2.4s.

The new Stereophile reviewed Dutch and Dutch active speakers that pretty much have time, if not phase, alignment. In fact, all of JA’s measurements were eye-popping. I can’t imagine I’ll ever own active speakers but I would love to hear those!