@davekayc- There’s Physics, again. ie: The heavier the groove modulation, the greater the friction(think sandpaper coarseness). Same with stylus force/pressure, in the groove(higher pressure = higher friction coefficient). Further from the center of the record = more leverage. The fluctuations in actual speed, to me anyway, are inconsequential enough to ignore(it may bother the back of my head, but- not my ears, gratefully).
Stylus-Drag..Fact or Fiction?
Most audiophiles can't seem to believe that a tiny stylus tracking the record groove on a heavy platter could possibly 'slow-down' the rotating speed of a turntable.
I must admit that proving this 'visually' or scientifically has been somewhat difficult until Sutherland brought out the Timeline.
The Timeline sits over the spindle of the rotating disc and flashes a laser signal at precisely the correct timing for either 33.33rpm or 45rpm.
By projecting these 'flashes' onto a nearby wall (with a marker attached)....one can visualise in real-time, whether the platter is 'speed-perfect' (hitting the mark at every revolution), losing speed (moving to the left of the mark) or gaining speed (moving to the right of the mark).
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser hits the mark each revolution until the stylus hits the groove and it instantly starts losing speed (moving to the left).
You can track its movement once it leaves the wall by seeing it on the Copperhead Tonearm.
Watch how it then speeds up when the tonearms are removed one by one....and then again, loses speed as the arms are dropped.
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser is 'spot-on' each revolution with a single stylus in the groove and then loses speed as each additional stylus is added.
Then observe how....with NO styli in the groove.....the speed increases with each revolution (laser moves to the right) until it 'hits' the mark and then continues moving to the right until it has passed the mark.
Here is the 35 year-old Direct Drive Victor TT-81 turntable (with Bi-Directional Servo Control) undergoing the same examination:-
VICTOR TT-81 DD TT vs TIMELINE
I must admit that proving this 'visually' or scientifically has been somewhat difficult until Sutherland brought out the Timeline.
The Timeline sits over the spindle of the rotating disc and flashes a laser signal at precisely the correct timing for either 33.33rpm or 45rpm.
By projecting these 'flashes' onto a nearby wall (with a marker attached)....one can visualise in real-time, whether the platter is 'speed-perfect' (hitting the mark at every revolution), losing speed (moving to the left of the mark) or gaining speed (moving to the right of the mark).
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser hits the mark each revolution until the stylus hits the groove and it instantly starts losing speed (moving to the left).
You can track its movement once it leaves the wall by seeing it on the Copperhead Tonearm.
Watch how it then speeds up when the tonearms are removed one by one....and then again, loses speed as the arms are dropped.
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser is 'spot-on' each revolution with a single stylus in the groove and then loses speed as each additional stylus is added.
Then observe how....with NO styli in the groove.....the speed increases with each revolution (laser moves to the right) until it 'hits' the mark and then continues moving to the right until it has passed the mark.
Here is the 35 year-old Direct Drive Victor TT-81 turntable (with Bi-Directional Servo Control) undergoing the same examination:-
VICTOR TT-81 DD TT vs TIMELINE
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- 169 posts total
Davey and Rodman, Wouldn't you rather leave the human-ness of live music in the hands of the actual musicians, who are also human, rather than to the super-imposed alterations in pitch and timing due to stylus drag, belt creep, and the like? For me, I want to eliminate those mechanical problems to the greatest extent possible so that the actual treatment of the music by the actual musicians gets across to me, so much as that is possible. The reproduction system has enough inherent problems as it is without admitting those others into the mix. |
Nice, if not perhaps irrelevant, if we can detect it audibly. The drag of the stylus will also change depending on where it is on the vinyl. Ultimate TT would constantly adjust the speed to perfect. As soon as stylus is down and alter speed as stylus progresses. Or, we stream and forget vinyl. (No way, haha, love vinyl) |
bohe60s, You wrote, "Nice, if not perhaps irrelevant, if we can detect it audibly." Was that in reference to my post at 11:23 AM? If so, can you explain your meaning a little better? If you were referring to my post, perhaps you did not understand what I was saying. If one can detect speed irregularities (audibly, of course), then it is not irrelevant to eliminate same, so much as that is possible. But maybe that is not what you meant. |
Well of course there is drag, as you have two surfaces rubbing together. Physics. I performed (for fun) 8^0 - controlled experiments years ago and eliminated the tonearm cartridge element - I used two of the same tonearms and carts. Each turntable drive type Idler, DD, Belt - revealed to me significant differences in the way the music was presented and the way each specific table dealt with stylus drag. (the topic of this thread) Each drive type had a "failing factor" ......an Achilles heel was presented to me. The way each setup - (turntable, tonearm, cartridge) dealt with the records behavior, varying grooves, and position on the record in play; resulted in an overall "unique" sonic presentation. For those interested my findings can be found here https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4719 and scrolling down to the last - most recent post comment - Sept 28, 2019 Its a rewrite (with hindsight) for the past - Goldilocks and the Three Turntables. |
- 169 posts total