2. cables
  3. 150728-122613

Interconnect Directionality

Have I lost my mind? I swear that I am hearing differences in the direction I hook up my interconnect cables between my preamp and power amp. These are custom built solid core silver cables with Eichmann bullet plugs. There is no shield so this is not a case where one end of the cable’s shield is grounded and the other isn’t. 

There are four ways ways to hook them up:
Right: Forward. Left: Forward. 
Right: Backward. Left: Backward
Right: Forward. Left: Backward
Right: Backward. Left: Forward. 

There is no difference in construction between forward and backward, but here are my observations:

When they are hooked up forward/backward there appears to be more airy-ness and what appears to be a slight phase difference. When hooked up forward/forward or backward/backward, the image seems more precise like they are more in phase. The difference between forward/forward and backward/backward is that one seems to push the soundstage back a little bit while the other brings it towards you more. 

What could possibly cause this? Does it have something to do with the way the wire is constructed and how the grains are made while drawn through a die? Am I imagining this? Have I completely lost my mind?
128x128mkgus
roberttcan
248 posts
 
I think if you are going to question others attachment to reality, you should obtain a better than cursory understanding of the physical world. 

1) The electrons "carry charge" ... and are also responsible for conveyance of energy.

2) I do consider 1 meter per hour "flowing" ... considering in 1 meter of 22awg wire there is about 2.6 * 10^22 FREE electrons ... i.e. how many are in motion. When you don't understand scale, it is not unusual to use it improperly and not understand what you are saying.

3) Current IS the movement of electrons literally by definition. Current is measured in Coulombs / second and since positive charge carriers do not move, that means electron movement.

Given the size of a Coulomb, and the number of free carriers available (electrons), it is not hard to see why you don't need a very fast AVERAGE velocity to transfer to transfer a lot of carriers across a given spot in space. 

You do know that at a high level all the carriers somewhat move at the same time right?  

Yes, you do have to look deeper grass-hopper, but if you keep doing it with your eyes closed as you do, you will not see anything.  Perhaps you can get away with your made-up physics with other people, but there are actual physicists and engineers here to call you out on your nonsense. 

geoffkait17,586 posts
>>>>If you wish to embrace reality you should first consider that electrons don’t flow, unless you consider a velocity of one meter per hour flowing. What is distorting the signal has nothing to do with electrons, which are simply the charge carriers. The electrons certainly aren’t the signal. The current is. You have to look 👀 deeper, grasshopper.
roberttcan
248 posts
 
Totally weird that people who make cables that work at 100GHz don't know this, but people who make 20KHz audio cables do .... strange ... very strange, almost like it is not true.

Cables are direction for shielding. Cables are directional where intentional elements have been added at one end. The rare, and very rare very very high frequency RF cable (10's of GHz) is direction because the control the impedance along the length for end to end impedance matching.

Since you know this stuff so intimately, I am sure YOU can put some hard numbers around the capacitance, inductance, bulk-impedance, etc. of these audio cables and relate that to amplifier, pre-amp, and speaker complex impedance and what the typical impacts the values of these cables will have on signal transmission. I mean that should be brutally simple for you right? You shouldn't even need Google ..... now after you do that, please relate that to the average impedance and response consistency unit to unit (variance) between capacitors, resistors, speakers etc. in the signal change. I can wait and I am sure others would like to hear your brilliance.


geoffkait17,586 posts10-14-2019 10:56amThings are worse than that ( connectors). A lot worse. In a nut shell all wire is directional. I am not the one who did it so don’t blame me. I did not invent reality. That’s why all cables and power cords and fuses are directional. That’s also why digital cables are directional. That’s why foreword thinking companies like Audioquest and Goertz and Anti Cables control directionality of cables from the get go. You have to honor the inherent natural directionality of wire. 🔜 HDMI Cables, Ethernet cables are also directionality. There is a separate issue with shielding but ideally the shielding direction should conform to the wire directionality. Same with connectors, if they are in fact directional, which they may be. Who knows? So, to summarize, all wire is directional and all wire in everything should be controlled for directionality, speaker internal wire, transformers, capacitors, internal component wiring. You name it.
clearthink
1,421 posts
 
roberttcan" I am sure YOU can put some hard numbers around the capacitance, inductance, bulk-impedance, etc. of these audio cables and relate that to amplifier, pre-amp, and speaker complex impedance and what the typical impacts the values of these cables will have on signal transmission. I mean that should be brutally simple for you right? You shouldn't even need Google ..... now after you do that, please relate that to the average impedance and response consistency unit to unit (variance) between capacitors, resistors, speakers etc. in the signal change. I can wait and I am sure others would like to hear your brilliance."

No one here is compelled, obligated, or required to conduct upon you're request, instruction, or demand any specific scientific studies, research, or explanation as to what they hear, percieve, and claim it is entirely upon you to perform such study, assessment, and analysis and since you state with unqualified, unrestricted, and absolute certainty I am sure it will be easy for you to comply with that which you insist others perform on you're behalf. 
roberttcan
248 posts
 
Hey, question for the group, are clearthink, and geoffkait the same person?  The reason I ask it that clearthink seems to think he needs to speak for geoffkait. Me believing geoffkait is an adult, believes that perhaps he can speak for himself.

NO clearthink, I don't need to prove anything .... though I can easily show that frequency effects are <0.1db on interconnects (MM phono cables excepted), and impacts on phase are so close to be 0 as to be 0.

HOWEVER, anyone with any idea about MFG of audio products knows that resistors are likely to be at 1% tolerance (and worse in many tube amps), the best capacitors 2-3% and many 5-20% tolerance, and changes in room temp and self-heating based on the music volume can have significantly larger effects.  Let's add in changes in parameters due to the self heating of voice coils will have a larger impact than cable direction, and that is not even taking into account the large variation from unit to unit in speaker MFG.

You know what else has a dramatically larger impact on sound transmission than the direction of a cable (shielding aside). Room humidity, especially if you have a larger listening room. Changes in room humidity could easily swamp out any differences you will see changing from one cable to another or from one interconnect to another or the direction.

However, to quote Hitchen's, "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence". A non-controlled listening test is not "evidence", it is anecdote. Learn the difference please. There are lots of anecdotes here, but there are no evidence. Astrologers use anecdotes ...  (so do people who believe the earth is flat).



clearthink
1,421 posts
 

roberttcan"I don't need to prove anything"

Neither are we required, obligated, or subject to you're order that we conduct any test, perform any measurement, or report any study based solely on you're demand, insistence, or order.  
More to discover