Something For The Fuse Guys ...

The GECOM technologies document is not a proper report of a metrology testing lab, this is purely a marketing document and an auspicious one at that. Let's point out the BS in the document:

1) No listing of equipment is provided, no pictures of test setups, nothing. Just take our word for it on the testing. You and I know, that is not how testing labs operate. Every test has a full equipment list and normally pictures.

2) The resistance difference "claimed" from direction 1 to direction 2 is on the order of 0.0001 to 0.00005 ohms, and the claim in some cases represents 0.05% difference at 2-3 milliohms.  Check out their accuracy page. They can't even measure to that accuracy at those resistances .... and they are claiming to be able to repeat it in both directions?  

3) Copper resistance has a temp coefficient of ~ (3.8* 10^-3)/C, silver similar at room temp. That means a change of 0.38% in resistance value per degree C ... and yet they claim in their report to measure resistance changes to an accuracy of 0.05 - 0.1%  or the change that would occur with a 0.25 celsius temp difference. I am calling BS .. super big time BS. There is 0 chance they temp controlled in that lab (see pictures - not a proper metrology lab) to that accuracy, AND they would need to use pulse measurements to eliminate self-heating (no mention), which means on time would have huge impact due to self-heating of the fuse temperature.

(p.s. also means that the temperature of your wires in your audio system has way more system impact)

4) They talk about Vector Impedance measurements, but don't claim the HiFi is the best for those (like every other one) ... and curiously the mentioned table of results is missing.

5) Their "noise increase" is  not nearly well defined enough to be meaningful. Increase over what as a start.

OH, and this is the best one. You can guarantee every piece of equipment they use has a garden variety fuse in it, is powered with a cheap power cord, and is connected to a rather garden variety power bar.

But sure george, you use these worthless results to try to justify your position.




geoffkait17,710 posts10-25-2019 5:48am
http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf

roberttcan" GECOM technologies document is not a proper report of a metrology testing lab, this is purely a marketing document and an auspicious one at that. Let’s point out the BS in the document: 1) No listing of equipment is provided, no pictures of test setups,’

That is very funny you are attacking this detailed, authoritative, informative report because it does not have pictures! The report does not include all of the background information because that is consistent from study to study and is otherwise available there is no need to report it individually for each study what is obvious here is that once someone comes out with actual data you shoot it down but you have no data yourself to supplant it even though you claim to have actual done extensive research and studies to support the millions of electronic devices you claim to have manufactured.

Dear Mr. Smarty Pants 👖 I’m afraid you need to take your troubles up with someone who cares. I do not (rpt not) use HiFi Tuning or their data sheets to justify my position. I actually am not trying to prove anything. I do not subscribe to the idea that a drop in resistance is the REASON for directionality, it’s only a clue. A lead, as detectives say. In fact, I have pointed out the obvious mistakes in the HiFi Tuning fuse data many times right here on these fora. So please stop putting words in my mouth!

Now, what is interesting, for the novice like yourself, is how consistent the differences in measured voltage drop are with *listening experience*. And how consistent the improvement in voltage drop is after cryogenic treatment.

So, at a minimum, I think it’s fair to say - based on the measurements data - SOMETHING IS GOING ON. 🤗 it’s not near as BLACK AND WHITE as you believe. A listener who doesn’t have a learning or hearing disorder can almost always tell when a fuse is in the correct direction. Even when the fuse is an ordinary Littelfuse or Busmann. We don’t need no stinking measurements! 😛 Some people would rather fight 🥊 than switch 🔛

To you, this document may appear detailed, authoritative and informative. To someone skilled in the art, it is amateurish and flawed.

NO, there is no consistency from study to study, especially for something like this. That is not at all a justification for no pictures or no equipment list. I get 3rd party test reports all the time to meet customer requirements or to validate results where we are unsure our in-house testing is sufficient or for compliance testing. With every report is a picture of the test setup AND and equipment list. Both items are essential to validate the results and/or to interpret the accuracy of the tests.

Whether I post results or not, and the funny thing is, you have no idea if I have or not, because like you, our names our anonymous here, MATTERS NOT AT ALL to the claims and accuracy of this report.

It is a simple fact, yes fact, by the labs own admission (with their equipment accuracy standards), that they cannot measure to an accuracy that could justify a conclusion that fuses are directional w.r.t. resistance, and, based on pictures of their lab, and the lack of any discussion of temperature control, pulse measurement, etc. it is easy dismiss resistance variations of less than a few percent due to the lack of temperature control.  Heck, they didn't even list how many samples they tested, is this the result of one carefully chosen sample against random competitor samples, is this an average of 2, 5, 10? .... what is the standard deviation, max/min? .... you know, REAL test data.

They don't even list the test current for fuses under 3A, AND, list a DC resistance of one competitor of 0.58 ohms, but somehow its AC resistance is closer to 0.068. That would suggest measurement error.





clearthink950 posts10-25-2019 10:30am
roberttcan" GECOM technologies document is not a proper report of a metrology testing lab, this is purely a marketing document and an auspicious one at that. Let’s point out the BS in the document: 1) No listing of equipment is provided, no pictures of test setups,’

"That is very funny you are attacking this detailed, authoritative, informative report because it does not have pictures! The report does not include all of the background information because that is consistent from study to study and is otherwise available there is no need to report it individually for each study what is obvious here is that once someone comes out with actual data you shoot it down but you have no data yourself to supplant it even though you claim to have actual done extensive research and studies to support the millions of electronic devices you claim to have manufactured."

GK

1) I am surprised that with your extensive knowledge that you didn't know that cryogenic treatment of metals for conductivity is not a new thing. Heck, you can find scientific paper on it.

They show about a 2% improvement in conductivity, unfortunately that is likely near their real measurement accuracy, but that level of improvement would not be unwarranted with partial cryo treatment and it could even be a bit better. I say partial as they likely did not have a 2 stage process that would result in even better results near room temperature.

Of course, not sure why I would pay 20-50X to get the improvement that could be achieved by just going up to the next fuse value.


W.R.T. to your audible claim of direction, since you claim the change is instantly obvious, YOU should be able to easily recreate it  (with someone else changing the direction .. or not) ?


geoffkait17,713 posts10-25-2019 10:35am
Now, what is interesting, for the novice like yourself, is how consistent the differences in measured voltage drop are with *listening experience*. And how consistent the improvement in voltage drop is after cryogenic treatment. 

So, at a minimum, I think it’s fair to say - based on the measurements data - SOMETHING IS GOING ON. 🤗 it’s not near as BLACK AND WHITE as you believe. A listener who doesn’t have a learning or hearing disorder can almost always tell when a fuse is in the correct direction.