Subwoofer advice

Sorry m-db, don't get your post.  "saddened"?  Nothing wrong with having an opinion.  I welcome all information, and all opinions, as long as your not a d-bag.

@pkatsuleas --

... Looking to supplement clean low end not anything bloated or overbearing.

If you don’t mind going the DIY-route and being you have a fair amount of space allotted, I’d recommend you build 2 horn subs. My experience with them is this: horn bass doesn’t come any smoother, more articulate, enveloping and effortless, period. You get quality AND quantity in abundance, and the latter is equally important because it leaves you with tons of headroom, which means lower distortion from less cone excursion and in return cleaner bass. The better, and gradual coupling to the air via the horn loading equates into higher efficiency, but not least it has the cone movement excite the air more effectively (compared to a cone that loads the air directly) in a way that has the bass become more palpable/present, enveloping and nuanced - also at lower SPL’s. The only drawback: the physical size of the horns, but if you’re really into the best quality and can manage them, get over it.

Design recommendation: Lilmike’s Cinema F20 with the 15" Dayton RSS390HF-4 driver (currently $190 pr. unit at Parts Express). Make the cabs yourself or have someone do it. MDF will do just fine (certainly as a stationary solution), but plywood is better though more expensive. Get the high-pass filter poster @mcreyn recommends (or a miniDSP), and buy a cheap (but fully sufficient) pro amp like a Crown XLS 1502 (~$425 at Amazon.com). All this should come in at approx. $1500 total. Google named horn sub design for more info (where build plans can be had for free), and remember to make two of them, in case.

Seriously, no pair of commercially available pre-build sub solution below $5,000 (or even more) will beat a pair of F20 horn subs in the areas overall bass quality and SPL capabilities down to 20Hz. Some may go lower, but would lack in other, more vital areas. Importantly: substantial SPL capabilities isn’t so much about max. SPL per se, but rather headroom. Headroom is your friend, and a surplus of it will give you totally effortless bass that I’d wager only horns subs can provide (and if you high-pass your mains, as recommend already, it’s all win-win).

Just my $0.02..

Hello pkatsuleas,

     You are correct, all of my posts are just my opinions based on my knowledge and experience unless specifically stated otherwise.
     I don’t consider myself an expert on subs or attaining the best in-room bass response. I would more accurately describe myself as a music and movie lover with a strong interest in high quality equipment that’s capable of playing back both in high fidelity.
     I’ve been enjoying various models of Magnepan speakers for many years and have been attempting, for about the same span of years, to supplement what I perceive as their poor quality of bass power, impact and dynamics (excluding their top models) with various levels of success until I employed the 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) concept in my room. The Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA system I now use in my system is by far the best bass system, or combination of subs, that I’ve ever experienced in any of my systems.
     The bass is smooth, fast, powerful, dynamic, detailed, natural, seamlessly integrated with my main speakers and overall what I consider near state of the art bass performance in my room for both music and HT. As I understand the DBA concept, the sota results I achieved through this system can be obtained in virtually any room, with any main speakers and without the need for room treatments or room correction.
     All of the above are the reasons I’m such a 4-sub DBA system fan and highly recommend it on so many posts here ad nauseum. This is the best solution I’m aware of for your situation.
     As I’ve stated, however, I believe you’ll also be able to get very good bass performance in your room using just a pair of properly positioned subs if you only require this at a single listening position in your room and not throughout the entire room.
     You’ve already received many good suggestions on this thread for high quality pairs of subs you could use. I thought phusis’s suggestion of DIY horn subs was the most interesting. I’ve read good reviews on these but have never personally heard a pair.


Best of luck,
  Tim

Thanks again Tim for your detailed responses.  Would love to check out the Swarm someday.  If anyone in the Chicago area has it I'd be happy for an invite.  ;-)

Phusis, I am exploring DIY speakers and will probably be doing a standmount design of some type soon.  A sub kit is possible in the future.  Thanks for the good info!

So, went ahead and picked up the local Hsu vtf-3 mk4 today.  This thing is certainly a beast!  Actually pulled my back getting it home (no joke!).  Very good condition, about 3 years old.  Messed around with it a little bit but it will take a lot more to get it dialed in.  Lots of different tuning options, hours of fun.  I already know that it will have to be set at low volume.  It can rattle the drywall on high!  Have the crossover around 35 Hz right now.   My Snells supposedly hit 36.

The poor guy I got it from obviously didn't do his research before buying.  Had it in a 12 x 12 room.  It was borderline painful  when he turned it up!  He was happy to see it go. 

Thanks again!  

Hello pkatsuleas,

     Yes, that is a beast at 90 lbs and it's rated down to 16 Hz but I think it's a good choice.  
    Using a single high quality sub should provide good bass at your listening position if it's positioned in your room and configured properly. 
     I'd suggest positioning the sub optimally by using the crawl method:
1. Hookup the sub, set the volume at about 50%(12:00), the crossover freq. to 35 Hz, the phase control to in-phase ("0") and place the sub at your listening position.

2. Play some music with good and repetitive bass with the volume set at about 40%(11:00).

3. Starting at the front right corner of your room, slowly begin walking or crawling on your hands and knees in a counter-clockwise direction until you find an exact spot around the perimeter of your room where the bass sounds best to you (solid, dynamic, smooth, accurate, detailed and natural).  Take your time, and do it multiple times if necessary, to make sure you identify the optimum exact spot.


4.  Once you find the exact spot the bass sounds best to you, move the sub to this exact spot without changing the direction the 12" driver is facing.


5.  Replay the music, sit at your listening seat position and verify the bass sounds very good to you.

6. Adjust the sub Volume, Crossover Freq, and Phase control settings to your preferences and to further optimize performance.

     I believe your results will be very good.  You also have the option to add a 2nd sub in the future which would likely result in the bass being even better in all qualities including even better integrated with your main speakers.  An identical Hsu vtf-3 MK4 would work well but even a different brand or smaller sized 2nd sub would provide the about the same benefits.
    However, I still believe an Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra 4-sub DBA system would provide the best quality bass in your room.  
     I'm located in Noblesville, Indiana, which is just north of Indy and about a 3 hour drive from Chicago.  If it's not too far a drive for you, you're more than welcome to visit and listen to my AK Debra 4-sub DBA system on music and HT.  I'm retired so just pick a date and time that's good for you and send me a pm if you're interested.


Later,
Tim