More questions about dedicated lines


We are moving to a new house built in 2007  and I am fortunate enough to be able to move a wall to create a room with golden ratios. I will need to run some new electric and it gives me the opportunity to run dedicated lines.  I have spent countless hours rummaging through the 7k discussions on this topic and have a decent idea of what is needed.  My plans are to have four runs of Romex 10/2, one each for each monoblock VAC signature 200's, my digital, and my Audiokinesis swarm which has not be set up yet.  I estimate the runs to be conservatively 45 feet including up and down distances. All runs will be of equal length ending in SR  outlets. They will be separate from each other and all other lines and no metal staples will be used.  When I told him I my goal was to have the best sound he offered a suggestion that I hadn't come across in my electrical education here on the gon.  He suggested placing what sounded like a commercial power regenerator with a large battery bank as the first step out of the breaker box and running lines from this.  The other options were to run from a preexisting sub panel that has the pool pump and a few lights on it, but nothing else.  Third is straight out the breaker box.  He wanted to put the runs closest to the utility line in, stating that there will be less noise upstream than downstream, but this puts these lines next to a big double breaker (cant' remember what it is but is sure to be noisey).  He understands that I want all lines on the same phase, or line,leg.  My questions are: Of the three options, which would be best?  Is there anything else needed to minimize the risk of ground loop hum if I use separate hot, return, and gound for each line and not share ground neutrals and keep all lines separated from themselves and other lines.  If going through a subpanel with little on it, how do I manage to keep all runs on the same phase without unbalancing the breaker? A third tangential question-Is it best to use metal or plastic housing boxes for the receptacle? The question of durability of the plastic fatiguing and breaking following repeated plugging and unplugging has been mentioned but I didn't see an answer.  Finally, a huge thank you to jea and almarg for their voluminous responses in all the prior electrical discussions-I got an education.  Sadly, I still don't speak electricalese.
orthomead
jea48,


What are you doing posting articles by actual engineers who understand the topic. Don't you know that "book smart" engineers couldn't possibly understand "audio"? All they know is numbers ;-)

Orthomead, if you skim over the articles that jea48 posted, they discuss why running multiple lines is not a good idea (highest potential for differences in the ground potential between the outlets. jea48's wire choice worked to negate induced ground potentials. I ran a single heavy gauge to eliminate ground potential differences between equipment (and used


My mini panel is in the wall behind my equipment rack. There is a small acoustic panel over top of it.
orthomead

I believe that audiozenology explained the best set up .
Run a heavy gauge wire like 6 awg from your main box to a mini or remote box as close to your new outlets as possible , then you could run 
Audience 10 awg wire to your outlets ( like AudioQuest's NRG Edison ) .

I believe that jea48 has a point about Romex , 
if you could run conduit it would be a better option ,
then you could use metal outlet boxes !

One thing I've learned is that Audio needs more gauge and more n's
in our power wires .

Your going to have a fantastic power base for your current system
and the future upgrades .

orthomead OP28 posts

12-21-2019
2:36pm

I think I’m getting somewhere here thanks to y’all. Jim, the PowerPaper you referenced indicated that there were two sheathing options-aluminum or steel and the article further references the aluminum sheathed hospital grade cable. Of these 3 options, what would you currently choose? Are all your components plugged directly into the wall or do you use a power strip and/or conditioner/regenerator?



@ orthomead

MC aluminum armored cable is more widely used than steel. Aluminum will help shield from RF noise but not AC magnetic fields. The steel armor helps reduce AC magnetic fields. Though the twisting of the current carrying conductor does most of that. The steel armor will help protect the conductors of the MC cable from close near by parallel running NM cables from induing an AC voltage, AC noise, onto the conductors of the MC cable.


If aluminum armor MC cable is used it should be kept, spaced, from other branch circuit wiring probably a safe distance would be 8" to 12" or so. 8" would be enough but 12" would be safer. (Within reason after getting out of the electrical panel and starting the parallel runs, of the dedicated branch circuits, as well as any existing parallel running NM (Romex) branch circuits, as they are being installed to the audio room and down the wall to the outlets.) (With Romex you need to pay more attention to cable separation.)

FWIW.
(I am not a fan of 4plexs, 2 duplex outlets (for two dedicated branch circuits), sharing the same outlet box. Kind of defeats the purpose of dedicated circuits separation. Also worth mentioning if wall warts are used, depending on the physical size of the wall wart, it blocks part of the outlet on either side of it.

If you want to use the steel armored MC cable I wouldn’t be surprised if the electrical contractor will have to special order it. I suppose it depends on amount of usage of steel armored MC cable in your State, area, though.

As for hospital grade MC armored cable it has two equipment ground wires. One bare ground that runs along side the spiraled twisted circuit conductors, (to bond, connect, the equipment grounding conductor to the steel outlet box). The other grounding conductor is a green color insulated wire for an IG, (Isolated Ground) type outlet). (This insulated green wire is tightly held in place and twisted in a spiral together with the black and white current carrying conductors.)

You don’t need to use IG outlets in a single family dwelling house structure. IG outlets aren’t used that much anymore and when they were used they were used in commercial and industrial facilities where branch circuit steel conduits are fastened to other steel objects. The theory is AC noise is traveling all over the place through the interconnecting steel and other electrical steel conduits.



Of these 3 options, what would you currently choose?
This is a question you really need to have with the electrical contractor you are working with. He has been on site and is better qualified to assess your situation. For one thing can he keep the 4 dedicated MC armor cables separated from one another after he gets out of the electrical panel, as well as other parallel running branch circuit wiring. As for me, I would go with the aluminum armor MC cable.

ONE THING FOR SURE! Make sure you tell the contractor you want #10awg SOLID wire. Not Stranded wire...... Make sure he understands you want solid.... Don’t let him try to talk you out of it. He will tell you the ampacity rating is exactly the same, and yes it is. Your audio system won’t sound the same though. Solid wire only.


Are all your components plugged directly into the wall or do you use a power strip and/or conditioner/regenerator?
Yes directly plugged into the wall outlet. No power conditioner.
And again, I used NM (Romex) cable. Your situation may be different than mine though. I didn’t feel the need to spend the extra money for the MC armored cable.

If you don’t mind having a sub panel installed in your audio room you may want to go that route. One factor to consider though is resale of the home.


Best place to Install it is in the new wall you will be building. Speaking of the new wall you may want to consider building a double wall with staggered studs. Leave a slight space between the two framed walls. A 1/2 inch to an inch would probably be plenty.


Per the NEC, and I’m pretty sure the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) in your city, the electrical panel must be readily accessible and have a clear working space in front of the panel. Your electrical contractor can tell you what the minimum front and side distance measurements are.


If you decide to have a sub panel installed, because of the cost of the installation, (material and labor), you should add plenty of a fudge factor for future. It’s a lot cheaper now than later if you decide to buy bigger amplifiers.


I would wire sub panel for 120/240V. With your present audio equipment you can still feed all the 4 dedicated circuits from one Line, leg. With both Lines, Legs, available you have the option to easily move the dedicated branch circuits to the Line, leg, for what ever reason if you so choose.

Sub Panel Feeder:
If it were me I would feed the sub panel with at least #4awg copper or #2awg aluminum conductors. I would oversize the equipment grounding conductor as well.
If the electrician used #4 copper, (or #2 aluminum), he could use a 2 pole 70 amp, or a 2 pole 80 amp, breaker at the main electrical panel. Code only requires a #8 copper for the equipment grounding conductor. I would probably bump it up to a #6 copper wire.

Overkill? Yeah, probably...... But consider you want four 120V 20 amp dedicated circuits, using #10 wire, to feed an audio system that draws around 7 amps.


Combined wire gauge calculator.
https://www.wirebarn.com/Combined-Wire-Gauge-Calculator_ep_42.html

Enter 4 for the number of wires.
Enter #10awg for wire gauge.4 #10s = #4awg.

Jim

jea48

Heck of a lot of good advice in that post!

If you are in a major city, I don't think you will have too much trouble finding steel armoured cable. Most of the major electrical distributors will stock it, though maybe not in their branch outlets, so you may have to order today, deliver tomorrow. I also used Romex as I have a dedicated run with nothing near it.


My brain is starting to go into Christmas shutdown mode, so I am not sure I am 100% accurate when stating that using 120/240 will create unbalanced current which could cause ground injection. Assume I am wrong, but please check my work.

One consideration, whether you wire for 120/240, if you use 6/3 (or 4/3), you can buy round (and twisted) instead of flat.

+1 on the double wall. Also consider resilient channel if you want some sound deadening.

I am not sure your reasoning behind using solid core (and not stranded), but I agree with the choice as well. The transformer in your equipment only has limited bandwidth, and anything beyond a few KHz to support required transient current delivery due to only conducting for part of the AC cycle (linear power supply), is just providing a convenient path in and out for noise.



EDIT:
jea483,227 posts

12-22-2019
1:57pm


Sub Panel Feeder:
If it were me I would feed the sub panel with at least #4awg copper or #2awg aluminum conductors. I would oversize the equipment grounding conductor as well.
If the electrician used #4 copper, (or #2 aluminum), he could use a 2 pole 70 amp, or a 2 pole 80 amp, breaker at the main electrical panel.


I just used the NEC ampacity rating of the wire to size the 2 pole breaker for the feeder. Going back this AM and rereading what I posted yesterday I should have posted a 2 pole 60 amp or a 2 pole 70 amp breaker. It could even be a 2 pole 50 providing the wire lug size is big enough for #4 copper or #2 Al (aluminum) wire.

Example Square D is listed at,
35A - 70A
  • 1 wire per lug: (1) #8 - #2 AWG Aluminum or Copper
https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA237923/




@ audiozenology

If you are in a major city, I don’t think you will have too much trouble finding steel armoured cable. Most of the major electrical distributors will stock it, though maybe not in their branch outlets, so you may have to order today, deliver tomorrow.
You would think so. But unless there is a demand for steel armor MC cable, Electrical Wholesale Houses, today anyway, don’t stock items that just take up self space.
I called 4 large wholesale houses this morning and none of them stocked the steel armor MC cable.


My brain is starting to go into Christmas shutdown mode, so I am not sure I am 100% accurate when stating that using 120/240 will create unbalanced current which could cause ground injection. Assume I am wrong, but please check my work.
Not sure I follow, please explain.
Remember in the OP’s case his average load is around 7 amps. #4awg copper is rated for 70 amps (60 degree C, 140 F) and 85 amps (75 degree C, 167 F, THHN/THWN)
(There are factors that may apply for the adjusted ampacity rating of the wire.)


The circuit is through one of the feeder’s two hot legs and the feeder’s neutral conductor, a 7 amp load is insignificant in the scheme of things in my opinion.

Jim