Cartridge loading

Since we have been in agreement all along on the first two bits, maybe its this last bit that is the stumbling block. I used to load MM cartridges to critical damping by simply ringing the cartridge/cable combination with a square wave and observing the resultant output and taming it with a loading resistor. MM cartridges have a lot more inductance so its easy for that inductance to ring. But attempts to do this with LOMC failed, simply because with any loading I could not detect anything other than a nice looking square output since the inductance is so low. So I am challenging the idea of critical damping of the mechanical aspect of the suspension, not because I don't think it can happen but more because I'd like to see the evidence.

I don't say that achieving critical damping is doable or even desirable from the sonic perspective.

I've also noticed that while I can cut a 35KHz groove on my Scully lathe, depending on loading you can't always play it back, depending also on the cartridge. 

I think here lies the answer - "depending on the cartridge". I can imagine that for some cartridges, or better yet, some cartridge/tonearm combinations, the extra damping from a low R, combined with  other factors may compromise the tracking. What I fail to see however is that this should be some universal law.

So now I am curious- at what frequencies did you make your measurements?

I did not do any measurements. I tune R_load by ear, usually preferring lower values, and have never experienced any HF mistracking.

I don't say that achieving critical damping is doable or even desirable from the sonic perspective.

I got that from @intactaudio 's comment about sidebands. I apologize as I did conflate your comments and his. Critical damping of the cantilever is one of the very few explanations I can think of for the phenom he described.

I think here lies the answer - "depending on the cartridge". I can imagine that for some cartridges, or better yet, some cartridge/tonearm combinations, the extra damping from a low R, combined with other factors may compromise the tracking. What I fail to see however is that this should be some universal law.

Its not so much a universal law as it is something to be aware of. If you have to use loading to achieve proper sound, it is a flag that something could be amiss: Instability in the phono section, a mismatch between arm and cartridge, that sort of thing.

Dear @atmasphere please treat all my writings as a friendly argument in a search for the truth, so there is no need to apologize :)

If you have to use loading to achieve proper sound, it is a flag that something could be amiss: Instability in the phono section, a mismatch between arm and cartridge, that sort of thing.

I'd respectfully disagree. I'd say much depends on how the cart is designed. Electromagnetic damping due to a low R is actually quite an attractive (at least on paper) way of damping. Look at it from this perspective: linear just by the physics, no deterriortion, easy to implement and easy to control *by the user* with a great accuracy by changing R. Mechanical damping on the other hand, could be more challenging to implement with non-linerities, aging effects, no user control etc.

Electromagnetic damping due to a low R is actually quite an attractive (at least on paper) way of damping.

I agree, it is. But the inductance of a low output moving coil is so low that resistive damping has little effect, as in a nutshell the inductor does not ring at audio frequencies or anywhere near them.

Dear @atmasphere : You followed posting your opinion and some " answers " but as in the fast you just followed failen to prove the MAIN SUBJECT under debate that you stated in this thread:

""" will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies .."""

You don’t have any teue facts/measurements that can prove your statement but Palmer in the other thread I mentioned and that you, Al and JC participated measured and told you that what you say is FALSE:

""" certainly not on tracking which is demonstrably false based on IM tests on tracking performance that I have incidentally performed as a function of load."""

Palmer proved with technical math simulations/studies that what you " touted " is not exactly true and in that thread you did not gave an answer to his post , I think because you have nothing on hand in that specific regards.


In the Hagermann link you posted you can read:

""" Most MC cartridges have less inductance than this example (chosen to highlight the issue), and so the typical loading value of 100 ohms is usually quite reasonable """"


@bydlo posted:

"[Lowering the R_load]... of course will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies. " ( this is what you posted. ) and his answer:

I fail to see it either,

@intactaudio

""" I do not see anyone debating that a loaded MC cartridge will stiffen its suspension, what I think is up for debate here is that this stiffening of the suspension will lower the cartridges ability to accurately trace high frequency info. """


Try to stop go " around and around " and go out of that circle where you are " trapped " by your self and give a direct measured answer to the main subject debate: limit cartridge trace high frequency.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


PS: I'm not pushing you as you posted. Things are that I'm asking you this questions for a few years now with no answer at all, a precise answer with out " circles ".