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Subwoofers and Phase Question For You Sub Experts

I use a pair of Dunlavy SC-3 speakers, known for their time/phase coherent crossover design.

When the stars align the speakers completely disappear and there’s a sense of space and 3 dimensionality that I’ve heard from few other speakers/systems. It’s easy to destroy the illusion with things like poor placement, poor setup of room treatments, etc.

Adding subs to the setup is both a blessing and a curse. The Dunlavy’s need some support in the nether regions and a pair of HSU subs do add a solid foundation to music which enhances the overall presentation; however, it’s at the expense of some stage depth, width and image dimensionality. Placing the subs a few inches forward of the front plane of the speakers helps a little but that isn’t where they perform at their best as ‘subwoofers’.
Finding optimal room positions for bass augmentation always creates a clash with the phase aspect of integration resulting in the diminished soundstage described above.
Playing with phase settings has little impact on the problem since there’s just a toggle for 0 and 180.

Which brings me to the questions - 
1/ How does running a swarm setup, with 4 subs, affect phase/time integration with the mains? Does it create twice or half the issue or remove it altogether?

2/ Looking at subs such as the JL Audio F series with auto room calibration, does the EQ algorithm compensate for any time/phase anomaly or is it simply looking for a more linear bass response?

I don’t mind investing in more sophisticated subs so long as I don’t end up with the same problem. I’m not really inclined to mess with software and the like, unless there’s no other way.

Thanks

Rooze


128x128rooze
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bdp24's avatar
bdp24
9,790 posts
 

"in other words we don't really know how all these things work so just do a bit of each and see what happens."

Now remember, this was posted after a number of posts from Duke, noble100, millercarbon, and others, in which they provided plenty of evidence that we DO know how all these things work.

Poor reading comprehension skills, slow learner, or just plain ol' duh?

luisma31
516 posts
 
I concur, I lived the one sub then two subs scenario and yes I had deep bass from two big subs but did not sound like natural bass. Shopping for speakers I met Duke and got his speakers, I have to say the sub array was an extra on the purchase as I wasn't looking for subs I had doubts honestly the Dayton sub amps (because of the price) will integrate and control the subs properly, I looked into more complex sub integration like mini dsp, dspeaker, trinnov etc but with digital dsp comes a side effect within the digital world which is losses during conversion if you are using hires content, anyway the subs arrived, I installed the them and was very surprised how well Duke's approach worked, I sold my two big subs and never looked back. The sub array takes almost no space as a matter of fact less space than my previous 2 subs and I have 4 now, can be easily positioned anywhere and the sound is natural bass not boomy, the daytons will provide all the phase controls and analog corrections needed, the price for the entire 4 sub system is the same or maybe a little less than the 2 subs.

Keeping this on thread for the OP the 4 sub approach allows you to put the subs almost anywhere and makes the positioning simpler and more inline with the geometry, because of the reasons already explained above by Duke himself, some others here are using 6. The daytons allows you to change the phase gradually not only 0 and 180 that is something digital sub integration usually don't have and I think not because is hard to do but the manufacturers haven't seen a need for it, I say usually because the high end ones trinnov comes to mind have it but be ready to hurt your wallet.



luisma31
516 posts
 
@bdp24 your statement makes sense, I don't completely understand the acoustics behind it, I understand physics and kind of grasp the concept but not entirely. Now the empirical evidence and testing of before and after proves me this solution is perfect, affordable and more importantly something people don't mention scalable, should you move to another bigger house or listening room just add 2 more little subs.




ctsooner
2,480 posts
 
The other things I love about the Vandersteen approach to subs is the way he his amps/x overs mimic the sound of the main amp.  If you spend money on a very expensive amp, his sub amps (AB type) mimic the sound so you don't have that fight either.  It does make a difference to my ears.  

I personally don't like any of the DSP I've heard as it takes away from the sound.  Some are bette than others, but even at the stores that sell DSP, most agree, but it's so easy to set up and most don't listen for the differences as they want it to sound better than analog EQ. ;) 
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