Cartridge loading

Dear @lewm : """ But you have absolutely no grounds to say that a 47K load on a LOMC cartridge sounds best to me in my system in my house with my equipment. """

Really? , well you have a short time memory even of what you post. Here is what you posted about, your words not mines:


""" But I have lately found that even LOMC cartridges sound their best when the cartridge is essentially un-loaded, at 47K ohms. The treble is more "open" and airy. Dynamics are also improved vs more traditional values of load resistance. """

and you followed:


""" I only recently experimented with reducing the load on my LOMC cartridges, which is to say I am running them at 47K ohms routinely now. I find the sonics to be more open and airy that way, and I feel no impulse to move back to the more typical 100R value. """


In the other side, yes I know that there is no reason for you can have a matter/worry that lost of credibility. Who cares about?, certainly not me ( not shock for me in any way. ) and obviously not you but after those posts by your self finally I can understand why you almost " die " for the FR/Dinavector ( terrible/horrible. ) tonearms and is because you love those kind of distortions. Good for you.
In my case I like different kind of distortions.

R.

On my post to which you responded (today at 1:18 pm), I was typing on my iphone, on which I am prone to errors. Perhaps the grammar of my sentence confused you, and I was unable to edit it because Dave (Intactaudio) posted before I could make a change.
So, my sentence, "But you have absolutely no grounds to say that a 47K load on a LOMC cartridge sounds best to me in my system in my house with my equipment", should have been re-written to say that you have no grounds to doubt my observation that 47K sounds best, in my house, in my system, with my cartridge. (I think at the time I was using either my Koetsu Urushi or my ZYX Universe.) I certainly did not mean to deny the fact that I did make that observation. Yes, that is what I have found with one of those two cartridges. As of today, I would say that loads above 1000 ohms, up to 47K ohms, sound about the same, but below 1K sounds less "real", more closed in. I’ve never checked the actual frequency response. Nor did I ever claim that high frequencies were actually attenuated with loads below 1K ohms. I am reporting a subjective judgement of what I hear on music. So keep your shirt on.

By the way, I should add that when it suits you, you are quite willing to accept J Carr as a guru.  Yet JCarr is one of many of the cognoscenti who also suggest 47K as a load for LOMCs, especially the Lyra cartridges he designs.
So now, what’s your problem?

I am probably crazy for jumping into this conversation, but boldly going in; there is a lot conversation with a lot of experience on this subject, but from a engineering perspective, actual analysis can be pretty light, and the accuracy of vendor data often a best guess.  

For the mechanical resonance issue, this article that you can download is a good detailed explanation:  "On The Mechanics of Tone Arms" Dick Pierce Professional Audio Development, Jan-05. But, it also begs the question - how does each vendor measure and report mechanical compliances.   Recently I was reviewing test data for some cartridges, and a noted vendor reported a cartridge compliance of 16, but when tested, it measured 23; that can be a big difference.  And, depending on your particular setup, the tonearm compliance can be different from the vendor data.  If, you are 9-10Hz calculated, then you have a pretty good margin for error.  But, if you are at the margins, maybe not; so a test record to verify is recommended.  Unfortunately, electrical can be a bit more complicated.

For the electrical resonance/loading issue, this article on TNT http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/load_the_magnets_e.html; does a closed loop electrical analysis, but then shows by testing that the actual measured results do not follow the simple electrical closed loop model.  However, this article "NEW FACTORS IN PHONOGRAPH PREAMPLIFIER DESIGN" TOMLINSON HOLMAN, 1975, clearly addresses multiple pre-amp design factors that can effect the overall cartridge-preamp performance; so the skill of the pre-amp designer and the pre-amp has a lot bearing.  Add to this, that the vendor reported cartridge data may not be correct.  When I was reviewing test data for some cartridges, a noted vendor reports a cartridge output voltage of 5.5mV, but it measured 10mV; that is a big difference.  

In summary, and somewhat amusingly, here we are in the 21st century, all full of metrics and big-data, and we are still trying to predict with accuracy how an over half-century technology will perform.  So, with the data we have, we take our best guess as to what will work.  But,  in the absence of actual integrated data - cartridge-tonearm-cable-preamp, which is surprisingly limited, we are still left just listening to the music; and making adjustments and decisions based on what sounds best.  An imperfect system that with patience can produce near perfect sound, one of those "freakin" miracles :).

No, you have a big problem. Not me.  Wanna go back and forth on this? I cannot imagine why you think I hit on you simply by pointing out a possible mechanism for one effect of loading on an MC cartridge. I was trying to make a neutral contribution to this discussion, but I realize it may have seemed to you that I was taking Ralph's side against your attack. I really wasn't.
Thanks for the correction on the recommended loading for the Lyra cartridges per the Lyra website, but is it not the case that Jonathan Carr has suggested 47K ohms for LOMCs, in this forum?  If I'm wrong there too, I would like to know about it.  In any case, I am far from "recommending" a 47K load.  As you may recall, I discovered that I liked 47K for one of my LOMCs by accident, because I forgot to adjust the load at the phono input one evening before playing music.  So I reported my surprising result here.  Unlike yourself, I do not try to tell other people what they should do. And the cartridge was not riding in either of the two tonearms that I own and you hate, on the evening when I made the observation that there is some merit to 47K loading in my system.  And why does THAT make you so furious?