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Getting close to starting the upgrade process...

About a year ago, I decided to get back into vinyl. I've had a Linn system for about the past 20 years. I use it for both 2 channel and video. I've got a Majik DS, Roon, Linn Kisto, 2x 5125 5 channel power amps with active cards installed, bi-amped active Ninka's, Sizmik Sub, Trikan center channel, and Unik surround speakers. I added an Emotiva MC-700 processor above the Kisto when the codecs evolved and run analogue outs for each channel into the Kisto for video.
  
I was not sure how much I would use a new turntable so I started out by buying a base Rega P1 plus. I ended up buying a bunch of records and really enjoying it. While buying someone's record collection off craigslist I was also offered their turntable. It was a Micro Seiki dd-35 with the MA505 arm and an AT150MLX cart. I picked up a Mofi studiophono preamp and tested against the base Rega. No contest. The Micro Seiki smoked the Rega. I sold the Rega and have been using the Micro Seiki for almost a year now. Since getting back into vinyl I've been buying and playing more 2 channel music than I ever did in the past. As a result I have been considering upgrading part or all of my system.
  
After months of research, I am getting close to making my first big purchase and wanted to get some opinions. I have explored several options on where to start (and possibly end) on this process. I have considered starting by replacing my older sub with a pair of new REL's. I have considered starting by getting a more robust phono preamp (possibly a used Uphorik or a Sutherland). I have also done a deep dive on turntables and have considered starting with a new deck. I have looked into new and used options from Linn, REGA, VPI, Technics, Mofi, Clearaudio, Sota, Well tempered, Origin Live, and GEM Dandy. I like to buy equipment that will keep me happy for a very long time. When possible I try to buy used due to the tremendous values that can be had.
  
After digesting a lot of information, I think I am leaning towards starting by getting a new GEM Dandy Polytable with the 12" Jelco arm and a moving coil cartridge (still undecided). It seems like a really well designed table that clicks all the boxes for me. I like that it seems fairly priced, easy to setup and use, handmade in the USA, and that it has all of George Merrill's best turntable designs/upgrades including the fluid damped motor system of the 101.3 and the digital motor drive to change and monitor speed. It seems like everyone that buys that table is happy with it. You don't see many on the used market. I am thinking of pairing that purchase with a Sutherland phono (possibly the Little Loco) and seeing how those two upgrades integrate with my existing Linn electronics and speakers.
  
My issue with trying to stay Linn and get an LP12 is that new I would probably want at least an Akurate level table and I don't want to spend $10k on a table. I considered used but LP12's are so finicky and I know service and upgrades at my local dealer cost a fortune. To be honest investing significant money in any used table scares me a little. I did find a good deal on a used Uphorik preamp but now that I am considering leaving the Linn ecosystem on the table that purchase does not seem prudent. All the other turntable options seemed to have issues with regards to price, features, performance, ease of use, reliability or support.
  
I realize that this level of front end will probably make me want to upgrade the Linn electronics and speakers at some point. Maybe not? I think leaving the Linn ecosystem for this first purchase, will give me more flexibility as I move forward. It would be nice to have the freedom to easily swap out or try something new. Right now I can't easily change my front speakers because my power amp has cards installed in it for the speakers. There are tons of great values in electronics and speakers in the used market too. I am actually looking forward to exploring other speaker brands and technologies. I will probably stay solid state with the electronics though because the system is used so often with video.
  
I would love to get your thoughts on any of the subjects above. I would especially like to hear from the GEM Dandy Polytable Super12 and Little Loco owners. I would also love recommendations on picking out a cartridge for this setup. The Hana ML and Ortofon Credenza Blue were recommended by George. The ML is at a much better price point but I have not really done a ton of research on cartridges. I listen to mostly jazz, vocals and classic rock. I despise surface noise and a harsh or bright high end.
  
Thanks in advance for your input.
128x128snatex
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Sure, the little Merrill is a good table for the money and the Jelco is a great low priced arm suitable for the vast majority of moving coil cartridges but I look at the Merrill as a starter table and as an  unsuspended turntable of low mass there are many things in the environment that are probably going to bother it like footfalls and vibration from various sources. You have already suggested a fondness for subwoofers and in that context unless you have a concrete floor under your system you would be better off spending a bit more money and getting a well tuned suspended turntable like a SOTA Sapphire. SOTA will also install that Jelco for you along with a very functional dust cover.
Nothing will bother the SOTA. You can bang it, jump up and down in front of it, scream at it, whatever. Nothing in the environment will bother it. This table could easily be a life time investment. If you do not like bright cartridges by all means stick with Ortofon. Go with the Cadenza Black. Sutherland makes an excellent phono amp.
After you do the front end go for speakers. Once you find speakers you like and you really have to look and listen then deal with the electronics.

Mike

millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
Keep the sub. Add more if you want but never sell a sub. Just add more.

Upgrade the table if you want. But try and understand, by far the best thing you can do right now is ditch anything multi-channel in favor of stereo. If you can get an integrated so much the better. The improvement will be so great I can just about guarantee you will not even have to spend one dime. Just sell surrounds and A/V, anything and everything that its your hands (amps with cards!) and put whatever that is into a good integrated. You will probably have money left over for a good phono stage.

You will find this simpler and more flexible approach carries big dividends. Things like power cords and interconnects make a huge difference. With the right choices you only need a lot less of them, and so can afford much better quality.

Believe me, you will not miss surround, not when you hear really good stereo, not for one second. Well maybe one second. But that's about it. Buy a couple more subs with the savings, the sound field will be as immersive as any surround, and that will be the end of that. 

Surface noise is largely a function of moving mass in the cartridge. The tiniest stylus motion sets up resonances, the mass at the generator end reflects it back down the cantilever to the stylus, which being light has no way of dissipating and starts bouncing around. This is the reason why you will find review after review saying expensive high end carts seem to have much less surface noise. Its not magic, its mass. Expensive MC have very low mass.

The lowest mass of all by far are the moving iron designs used by Soundsmith. You want good sound and hate noise you want MI not MC or MM.

snatex's avatar
snatex OP
16 posts
 
unless you have a concrete floor under your system you would be better off spending a bit more money and getting a well tuned suspended turntable like a SOTA Sapphire
Thanks for the feedback Mike. I do have a concrete foundation and carpet and the turntable is on a very heavy solid piece of furniture. I don't think footfalls or vibrations should be an issue. 

From researching the Sota tables it appears that most of their good features start at the Sapphire line. Though I think the vacuum hold down is further up the line. A new base Sapphire VI with a Jelco 9" arm is about $5k without a cartridge. Thats about $2k more than the Polytable with a 12" arm. What are your thoughts on the SOTA's refurbished tables? They come with Series 3 motor and electronics and no warranty. That is not too comforting. Also, the add-ons and service propositions seemed pricey too. 

If you do not like bright cartridges by all means stick with Ortofon. Go with the Cadenza Black.

At almost $3k that is also a bit more than I would like to spend. Any other recommendations more in the $1k range?

snatex's avatar
snatex OP
16 posts
 
The lowest mass of all by far are the moving iron designs used by Soundsmith. You want good sound and hate noise you want MI not MC or MM.
Interesting. Any particular models that you recommend checking out? 
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
Well I have my eye on the Hyperion myself. Reviews and user feedback on it is its a real outperformer, and me and my system are totally up for it. But the whole range is MI, and the assembly and moving mass of his cheapest biggest most massive budget cart is tiny compared to even a really light weight low output MC.

I suspect a lot don’t even know what that means. I sure didn’t. Not until about a year ago. Even then it took a while, because MI is such a small percentage of carts compared to MC or MM, which together are probably 95% of the market. Totally guessing. Whatever it is, its tiny.

In a MM the magnet moves. In MC the coil moves. Both designs require the moving mass, be it coil or magnet, to be powerful enough to generate useful output. With moving iron, sometimes called fixed coil, both the coil and the magnet are fixed, and the cantilever moves a tiny piece of iron. The output signal is the fluctuation in the field produced by the moving iron.

Very ingenious. B&O figured it out. Patented it. Soundsmith manufactured under license, continuing to develop the technology for decades. Now B&O is out of the picture, Ledermann finds himself the only guy in the whole industry knowing how to build the one design with the most inherently superior technology.

I’d look at whichever one suits your budget. Then stretch and buy the next one better. Because in addition to everything else he has by far the best warranty, rebuild, and re-tip deal. There are reviews on a lot if not all of them, and I have yet to hear anything bad from anyone. DYODD of course, as always.
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