Z, thanks for posting your results here. I know that conducting such a test is very time consuming let alone writing a "novel" explaining the whole scenario. Your effort is much appreciated.
I would have to say that i believe your results 100%. Given the fact that the motivation behind your testing was strictly for your own benefit, there is no logical reason to believe that you would want to lie to or fool yourself by making the tests anything less than "fair" in your own eyes. As such, i'm sure that you did the best possible in those terms.
With that in mind, my limited experience with upsampling is somewhat different than what you stated. I don't think it is so much "upsampling" as a whole that instigated the lesser quality performance that you witnessed, but rather how upsampling was implimented and the parts quality & circuitry that they chose to do it with.
As a case in point, there are many paths that one can take when going from Point A to Point B. All of them might be called "highways", but some will have a lot of bumps along the way, making the trip less comfortable and more fatiguing. Others may have more traffic and be quite congested and slow, which would increase frustration. A select few may provide excellent travel times with beautiful scenery and minimal road hassle and congestion. Obviously, this is the path that most would choose to take. That is, if they were aware of such a path. The end result of all of those paths are the same i.e. you got from Point A to Point B, yet the way that you got there was done in a very different manner. The same can be said for circuit designs in any electronic based products. There are more than a few methods and designs that claim to do the same thing, yet they all do them very differently.
I think that most of what people here in any cd player or DAC ( upsampling or not ) are the power supply, passive components and filtering used. I am of the belief that use of a quality power supply with a lot of filtering and regulation is of utmost importance. Since transformers and digital gear produce both RF hash and magnetic fields, one has to take steps to minimize the potential for problems in both of those areas. This means paying special attention to shielding and / or how wiring is laid out on the board. After all, a wire connected to and running through a magnetic field can become a radiating antenna. Use of ribbon wire inside any digital component can only lead to "cross contamination" in various parts of the circuitry. The wires in such a design run parallel and so close to each other that the inductance involved pretty much makes them an easy target. As such, point to point wiring becomes mandatory. Even if one were to do that, you could still run into problems if steps were not taken to minimize the potential for that wire to pick up RFI / EMI. This means individually shielded wires or wires using non-standard geometries become mandatory.
I also think that different brands & types of resistors, capacitors and diodes have various sonic signatures. Knowing how to blend the various sonic signatures of various brands in each part of the circuit to achieve good tonal balance, proper harmonic structure and good transparency is a very fine art. This is known as "voicing" a component. Being able to do this and keep parts count to a minimum can result in a very short and excellent sounding signal path. However, even a short signal path with minimal parts count can suffer from impedance mismatches, microphonics and RFI. This means more damping and shielding with special attention to how things are laid out on the circuit board.
I also think that filtering on the analogue output is detrimental to performance. Besides creating phase shifts, filters of any type create impedance mismatches and reflected energy back to the source. Since digital is basically an RF signal, these "internal reflections" are technically called VSWR ( voltage standing wave ratio ) and create loading irregularities within the circuit. This can result in loss of coherence, liquidity, increased grain and an overall lack of transparency. Getting rid of, or minimizing, the filtering on the output of the DAC makes a HUGE difference in my opinion. Upsampling and using high quality passive components in a well thought out design only adds more icing onto the cake.
The most "organic" presentation of digital recordings that i've ever heard has come courtesy of equipment that has extremely little to no output filtering in the DAC. As far as i know, there are only a very few products that make use of this design strategy and philosophy with none of them available in SACD or DVD-A players.
In plain English, i've heard better "red book" digital than i have heard come from newer highly touted "high tech" methods of recording such as SACD and DVD-A. Bare in mind that this is not to say that these formats do not have potential. I think that they do. Just as is the problem with redbook, my thoughts are that the prime limitations are based in the recording studios and disc making process and how the design of such players is implimented for home use. I think that we've finally gotten to the point that we've got a good handle on how to make "good" digital discs and playback systems using a low sampling frequency. Things should only get better as we increase the sampling rate ( as SACD & DVD-A does ) and fully incorporate all of what we already know into future playback equipment designs and recording techniques / equipment. Obviously, this will take some time as it has taken us almost 20 years to get this far refining a much simpler design.
Luckily, some engineers are smart and they will carry over and incorporate what they already know into future designs. This means we should have much more rapid advancement of the SACD / DVD format than what we originally had with redbook, but that is only if the manufacturers and designers choose to apply themselves and produce that level of product.
Since none of these products exist today, or what i should say is, IF these products exist today, i am not aware of them nor do i think that i can afford them. As such, i've settled on a redbook system that takes advantage of all of the aforementioned design goals. While it is not perfect, it is the best that i've been able to assemble with the means and resources that i have. It just so happens to be based on an upsampling DAC. While i've not ruled out any other platforms of reproduction, i have heard enough to know that what i have is a very solid performer and that i have good reason to be happy with it.
As such, all i ask is that people keep an open mind about the ENTIRE "digital subject" and look at things objectively and on a product by product basis. Otherwise, we are bound to run into classifying all digital products into 1X sampling / oversampling / upsampling / SACD / DVD-A, etc... categories. This will not help us in any way just as it hinders us in the all too common "tube vs SS" debates that seem to run rampant. I think that the bottom line is "musicality with good accuracy" and any / all of these methods are capable of doing so. That is, IF the designers put their mind to it and we thoughtfully assemble the correct components. It is up to us to tell the desingers what we want and are willing to pay for. Hopefully, they will listen and try to give us those things, regardless of the method used. Sean
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I would have to say that i believe your results 100%. Given the fact that the motivation behind your testing was strictly for your own benefit, there is no logical reason to believe that you would want to lie to or fool yourself by making the tests anything less than "fair" in your own eyes. As such, i'm sure that you did the best possible in those terms.
With that in mind, my limited experience with upsampling is somewhat different than what you stated. I don't think it is so much "upsampling" as a whole that instigated the lesser quality performance that you witnessed, but rather how upsampling was implimented and the parts quality & circuitry that they chose to do it with.
As a case in point, there are many paths that one can take when going from Point A to Point B. All of them might be called "highways", but some will have a lot of bumps along the way, making the trip less comfortable and more fatiguing. Others may have more traffic and be quite congested and slow, which would increase frustration. A select few may provide excellent travel times with beautiful scenery and minimal road hassle and congestion. Obviously, this is the path that most would choose to take. That is, if they were aware of such a path. The end result of all of those paths are the same i.e. you got from Point A to Point B, yet the way that you got there was done in a very different manner. The same can be said for circuit designs in any electronic based products. There are more than a few methods and designs that claim to do the same thing, yet they all do them very differently.
I think that most of what people here in any cd player or DAC ( upsampling or not ) are the power supply, passive components and filtering used. I am of the belief that use of a quality power supply with a lot of filtering and regulation is of utmost importance. Since transformers and digital gear produce both RF hash and magnetic fields, one has to take steps to minimize the potential for problems in both of those areas. This means paying special attention to shielding and / or how wiring is laid out on the board. After all, a wire connected to and running through a magnetic field can become a radiating antenna. Use of ribbon wire inside any digital component can only lead to "cross contamination" in various parts of the circuitry. The wires in such a design run parallel and so close to each other that the inductance involved pretty much makes them an easy target. As such, point to point wiring becomes mandatory. Even if one were to do that, you could still run into problems if steps were not taken to minimize the potential for that wire to pick up RFI / EMI. This means individually shielded wires or wires using non-standard geometries become mandatory.
I also think that different brands & types of resistors, capacitors and diodes have various sonic signatures. Knowing how to blend the various sonic signatures of various brands in each part of the circuit to achieve good tonal balance, proper harmonic structure and good transparency is a very fine art. This is known as "voicing" a component. Being able to do this and keep parts count to a minimum can result in a very short and excellent sounding signal path. However, even a short signal path with minimal parts count can suffer from impedance mismatches, microphonics and RFI. This means more damping and shielding with special attention to how things are laid out on the circuit board.
I also think that filtering on the analogue output is detrimental to performance. Besides creating phase shifts, filters of any type create impedance mismatches and reflected energy back to the source. Since digital is basically an RF signal, these "internal reflections" are technically called VSWR ( voltage standing wave ratio ) and create loading irregularities within the circuit. This can result in loss of coherence, liquidity, increased grain and an overall lack of transparency. Getting rid of, or minimizing, the filtering on the output of the DAC makes a HUGE difference in my opinion. Upsampling and using high quality passive components in a well thought out design only adds more icing onto the cake.
The most "organic" presentation of digital recordings that i've ever heard has come courtesy of equipment that has extremely little to no output filtering in the DAC. As far as i know, there are only a very few products that make use of this design strategy and philosophy with none of them available in SACD or DVD-A players.
In plain English, i've heard better "red book" digital than i have heard come from newer highly touted "high tech" methods of recording such as SACD and DVD-A. Bare in mind that this is not to say that these formats do not have potential. I think that they do. Just as is the problem with redbook, my thoughts are that the prime limitations are based in the recording studios and disc making process and how the design of such players is implimented for home use. I think that we've finally gotten to the point that we've got a good handle on how to make "good" digital discs and playback systems using a low sampling frequency. Things should only get better as we increase the sampling rate ( as SACD & DVD-A does ) and fully incorporate all of what we already know into future playback equipment designs and recording techniques / equipment. Obviously, this will take some time as it has taken us almost 20 years to get this far refining a much simpler design.
Luckily, some engineers are smart and they will carry over and incorporate what they already know into future designs. This means we should have much more rapid advancement of the SACD / DVD format than what we originally had with redbook, but that is only if the manufacturers and designers choose to apply themselves and produce that level of product.
Since none of these products exist today, or what i should say is, IF these products exist today, i am not aware of them nor do i think that i can afford them. As such, i've settled on a redbook system that takes advantage of all of the aforementioned design goals. While it is not perfect, it is the best that i've been able to assemble with the means and resources that i have. It just so happens to be based on an upsampling DAC. While i've not ruled out any other platforms of reproduction, i have heard enough to know that what i have is a very solid performer and that i have good reason to be happy with it.
As such, all i ask is that people keep an open mind about the ENTIRE "digital subject" and look at things objectively and on a product by product basis. Otherwise, we are bound to run into classifying all digital products into 1X sampling / oversampling / upsampling / SACD / DVD-A, etc... categories. This will not help us in any way just as it hinders us in the all too common "tube vs SS" debates that seem to run rampant. I think that the bottom line is "musicality with good accuracy" and any / all of these methods are capable of doing so. That is, IF the designers put their mind to it and we thoughtfully assemble the correct components. It is up to us to tell the desingers what we want and are willing to pay for. Hopefully, they will listen and try to give us those things, regardless of the method used. Sean
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