confused and don't know what to do

Rbach first we didn’t have your post removed.

Second we meant no disrespect to Millercarbon by shortening his handle to Miller.

Thirdly,we praised his dedication to two channel audio and commented that we also believe in tweeking up and using all the tools necessary to construct a great sounding music system.

However, we did take offense to his original post where he said that connecting any speakers to a multi channel receiver is a waste or that in general multi channel is a waste, if Dagastino built a $50k surround sound receiver do you think that piece might sound good? 

We have personally experienced that you can have a great music and theater setup by using a high end intergrated amplifer combined with a surround sound receiver, the receiver powers the centers and backs and the high end integrated powers the mains, you have a CD player or streamer going into the integrated and boom, you have a dual purpose system that is excellent for both.

In this context the receiver is powering the centers and the backs so its lower level of quality compared to the main amplifier will be less noticable.

Again, there are indeed very high end receivers that are superb for both music and theater, the famous Arcam AVR 600 was praised through the rooof by J Peter Moncreif as offering fanatstic sound for both music and theater the newer Arcam and Audio Control models are actually quite good for both music and theater.

The difference of course is the quality and extent of the main loudspeakers for a pair of top of the line KEF and B&W of course you need even better electronics, but that still doens’t negate the fact that a high end $6,000.00 receiver isn’t going to sound quite good, would it sound as good for pure music as a $6,000.00 pure music rig the answer would be not as good, also today there are some really superb mutli channel amplfiers and surround sound processors.

For the true music and home theater person you can also purchase a surround sound processor and a multi channel amp and add a good tube preamplifier and still have a combined music and home theater setup that works wonderfully well for both so indeed there are many ways of constucting such a system.

The point made is that for many people like the OP they want a good system that can do both music and home theater to tell someone that you can’t do both when of course you can is wrong and may deprive that person of having a really immersive and totally engaging experience for watchimg TV and Movies which a Home Theater system can provide and of course you can still accheive great sounding music.

Rbach you need to lighten up, our advice is based on having experience, that is of course going to be completely different from Millercarbons.

There is a world of difference between a hobbist and someone who does this for a Living. We totally respect Millercarbon and for him his way is best, just please don’t tell people that want a system that can do both music and theater that you can’t accheive good results and that multi channel is a waste.

When we watch a movie in our theater it is a totally engrossing experience and unless you have a real Home Theater you have no idea on just how spectacular the experience can be.

Do we want this experience for others of course we do, we also want people to fall in love with the magic of a great two channel music system, the point we were making is that yes you can do both it just requires selecting and integrating the right equipment.

Just please don’’t tell someone that you don’t need a center channel or rears the fact is those two types of speakers create the magic of surround sound in the first place.

It seems that Millercarbon was saying some of the same things that we are saying he just said them incorrectly:

It is always better to invest in a high quality two channel rig than for the same budget a five or more channel rig as the two channel rig will sound far better for music.

What Millercarbon could have said was that you can start with this kind of setup a two channel rig and then transition to a rig that can do both by adding a surround sound receiver, a center channel and rears.

As for experience, wether you are talking to us or anyone else in the industry, do you honestly think that a person who is a hobbist is going to have as much experience as someone who does this for a livng 40-60 hours a week, 365 days a year? Most of our clients have built 4-5 systems in their lifetimes compare that to any store employee or owner, who has been in business, 10,20,30 years, and most of us have built hundres to thousands of systems, you learn a lot in doing this a business.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

COOL IT, why don't we?

Right now the OP must be regretting asking his question. Let's show him a little respect, shall we?

Where we disagree is that having a center channel is crucial and having back loudspeakers are also something that is going to add a lot into the effect of creating a believable sound field which if done correctly will help immerse the listener in the action.

Right. So rather than let this slide by as a simple disagreement let's analyze it a little and hopefully educate so people can decide for themselves.

The reasoning behind the need for a center channel is simply that people in a movie theater are seated all over the place. A believably rock solid center image and soundstage only works from the sweet spot. People seated far off-center, instead of hearing dialog coming from the screen between the speakers it will come from whatever speaker they're closest to. This of course will ruin the illusion we want to create.

For this reason and this reason alone a center channel can help, if and only if you want people sitting all over the place to hear dialog as coming from the screen. Everyone with seating for lots of people should probably at least consider a center channel for this reason.

So for people with lots of seating, or with seating everywhere but in the sweet spot, it might make some sense to have a center channel. Have you mentioned this, audiotroy? You may well have. Its a weakness of mine to avoid wasting my time reading the posts of certain exceptionally boorish misinformed serial posters. So if I missed it please let me know.

In fact no, I want you to let us all know either way. Am I in fact stating things accurately? And are you in fact informing your customers? Can you direct me to the post where you covered this? Answers. Please.

Millercarbon, you do know that you are talking to trained Home Theater designer and audiophile correct?

Your statements are in fact wrong, the reason a center channel speaker is used, is to create a sense of anchoring the dialog from a point in the center of the screen and to create a point which the actors voices or action can pan either stage left or stage right.

If you mix in the center channel then the left speaker is producing the dialog as well as the right, there is no anchor point below the screen, this does not create as good as an effect.

The other advantage of a center channel is that the volume of the dialog can be adjusted to compensate for the room and for the clarity of the dialog which sometimes boosting a db or two from its normal level can increase dialog intelligibility.

Can you use a phantom center yes you can, is the effect as good the answer in most cases is no.

One of the reasons for Dolby Pro Logic and then DTS, Dolby Atmos and systems with ever more channels is to duplicate how sound will travel in a real world enviorenment.

In fact the best Home Theater systems place the center channel behind the screen so the dialog abosolutely comes from the actors mouths.

You also disdain rear speakers, okay man we have on occasion done systems where there was no room for a center channel, but without rears there is zero surround sound effect and you completely lose the magic.

We have four theater setups in our shop, the first is a dedicated 5.1 Atmos theater in a dedicted room designed to be a Home Theater this room features accoutically paneling, the second room is our "lab" room which is a conventional 5.1 setupwhere we demo many high end loudspeakers and components in a regular room, and our third room is lower end surround sound setups and music systems.

We wish you could hear what state of the art home theater is, the effects can be magnificent, we can also hear your points about doing a really top high end setup.

The thing on these boads is that not everyone wants the same thing, we sell great all in one components like the Naim Uniti which has the amp, preamp, dac, and streamer in one box, that concept with a good pair of speakers makes a lot of people happy. Yes for the same money you could buy a separeate amp, and a streamer, but for many people the simplicity and elegance of an all in one fits their lives better, for others it is the concept of ultimate sound quality for the money.

Yes a $50k two channel super tweaked up system is going to sound better for music than a $50k surround sound setup that is not the point the point is what does the person want, if you are a casual TV watcher than allocating funds the way you suggest may be optimum, however if the person really loves watchig TV or Movies and is captivated by the idea of a system that will help create a more immersive enviornment than haveing the extra loudspeakers and electronics is going to be a better setup.

It really comes down to what the person wants, it is our contention that you can design a system that can serve two purposes beautifully and wherever possible the addition of the extra speakers will be worth the time, money and effort to do so.

What we do agree with is that multi channel music is a gimmick that is unncessary.

Hope that helps you understand our position and Millercarbon we have a lot of respect for how well dialed in your system is, we do many of the same things you do in our reference audio room, and we know that there are also people here who think the tweeky stuff is bunk yet we know like you do that resonators, power cords, power conditioners, footers etc can all be valuable tools in helping make a system sound like real music.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

raw33,

I actually went this weekend to the Tampa, Fl. Audio Show and fell in love with the new Sonus Faber Olympica Nova’s. The cabinetry was amazing and the sound for the price was superb. I listened to the Nova ll and can’t imagine how much better the 3 and 5 are. They have been improved quite a bit compared to the original Olympica line. The base was improved significantly on these Nova’s and they are sonically well balanced. They are engaging without being in your face. I am confident these will be good for your Home Theatre and 2 channel listening. I would highly recommend these, since I am a Sonus Faber owner and fan. I am actually torn between the Verity Otello and the Sonus Faber 3 or 5 at this point, by the way the Otello’s are awesome as well. I am suggesting the Sonus Faber because they have the center and rears. Also, Sonus Faber is willing to ship them to you for audition without having to commit. They will refund you in full if you do not like them.  Let me know what you decide...