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Preamp w/DAC (or Integrated w/DAC) vs. Outboard/External DAC? (Again! Forgive me!)

Please forgive this question if you think it's been answered before. I really have been researching it and am still confused.
Regarding prospective purchases of preamp or integrated amp —total budget about $3-4k.
I am still trying to decide a basic question of tubes vs. solid state.
But, I am *also* stymied by the "external vs. internal DAC" issue. This is the question I'm raising now.
  • Some say "you must get an external DAC because things change so much."
  • Others say, "get an internal DAC, you'll be fine and then can do a pre-out later, if DAC's change."
  • An audiophile friend says, "Even having an internal DAC that you bypass still adds noise, so keep it separate for that reason, too." (He recommends audio-gd DACs.)
  • Because I'm very interested in PS Audio's StellarGainCell (and it has a built in DAC) and I raised the DAC issue with them — I asked, basically, "Why shouldn't I worry about the obsolescence of the DAC in the GainCell Preamp?"
  • PS Audio replied: "It’s true that DAC technology has changed a lot in the last decade and obsolescence has been an issue as the industry has shifted towards streaming….The Gain Cell is compatible with all of the popular formats, like DSD and high rate PCM, so obsolescence is unlikely for what we can foresee. All of the streaming services we’re seeing, even new ones like Qobuz, are doing 24/192 and the Gain Cell is more than capable to handle all of that. While we can’t predict the future, we’re not seeing anything on the horizon that we expect to change this. We haven’t heard of anything that would be game changing and drastically alter this product’s relevance as the Gain Cell can process the file types and sizes we’re seeing with streaming which is increasing in popularity….We’re proud of the design of the Gain Cell’s preamp section, and I think its performance both in the DAC section and the preamp section will have a lot of longevity for years to come."
Any opinions about the general issue?
Any suggested $$ breakdowns for how to spend $3-$4k — how much for preamp, amp, dac, proportionately?
This is a system-building in progress. I'm spending reasonable, similar amounts on other elements but not gobs of money -- e.g. I will not have $5k speakers or a $2k streamer, etc. So if you think I'm over-worrying this question *given my total system's modest profile* you can just tell me straight, "Dude, don't bother worrying about this question. Your system isn't worth it." I'll appreciate that candor, too.

128x128hilde45
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
4,974 posts
 
Here's what psaudio said about the external DAC issue. I now have roughly half of people saying "get an external DAC" and the other half saying "it doesn't matter." Ugh!
"While I would agree that an outboard DAC is the most ideal situation it would also take a far superior DAC to the Gain Cell to be a better performing unit. So having the DAC internal to the unit is not the most important factor to consider. If you’re asking if something like an outboard DAC like our DirectStream DAC would sound better the answer is yes, it certainly would. But that is largely because the DAC is superior over the Stellar unit. But on the other hand if you’re wondering if a less expensive standalone DAC will sound better then the answer is likely no because the DAC isn’t as good. So I wouldn’t get to hung up on making sure you have an internal/external DAC rather than selecting a unit that you like and works well for your use."

headphonedreams
527 posts
 
Just having visited a small audio show I can say that built-in dacs and streamers are becoming the norm for mid-fi. I would not worry too much over future resell value.

The noice your friend is talking about is probably not noticable in this price range. The more expensive systems mostly used pre-amps, amps and a combined dac+streamer or separate dac and streamer but then we are talking $3k per piece or so with a total (sometimes way) over $10k.

I heard a Hegel h590 integrated that sounded very good and an Arcam SA30 (I think) that was also good but not as good (only $2.5k and with cheaper speakers). Hegel has a model called h190 that is cheaper if you don’t want to go to the h590 or h390, still with dac and streamer.

I know Bryston has a good integrated with dac but don’t remember what it costs. Ayre has one for about $6k, maybe they have a cheaper model too. And so on.

See what you can listen to and again, I don’t think you have to worry too much about parts being integrated.

Good luck!
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
4,974 posts
 
thanks @headphone. You’re exactly right. My friend has an insane system...monoblocks, maggies, etc. His advice is a bit askew my needs. You’re more attuned. Thanks for thinking about my situation, specifically. That’s what I was hoping for. 
rego
378 posts
 
@hilde45, About my post how PWM is utilized with regard to amplification.
My input is intended to address the statement:
"I am still trying to decide a basic question of tubes vs. solid state. "
PS Audio as well as Technics have developed / use Hybrid Amplification
solutions.
Back to the question of DACs.
Manufacturers develop products in different ways!
The Stellar GC Preamplifier combines Pre-Amp function with DAC function.
Further the Stellar GC Pre features a full range of Digital and Analog inputs. With Ballanced and SE Analog Output.
Now do you want to play High-Rez, 16/44.1, MP3 files ... if you only want to play MP3 files you do not need a Stellar Pre.
A Pre Box DS2 (for example) similarly is an Integrated Pre-Amp / DAC and Headphone Amplifier " Digital micro preamplifier with MQA and DSD512" without balanced connections for $399.
The Pre Box DS2 sounds 'very good' paired with QA Sixty Watt Monoblocks and brand X Speakers.
If you like Buchardt my suggestion would be model S400 because the S400 uses a Wave Guide to better integrate the high range frequencies.
And the S500 would probably integrate into a 'room' even better than the S400.
No I have not had an opportunity to listen to any of any in the Buchardt 
lineup ...

hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
4,974 posts
 
@rego thank you so much for your answer. I do want to play high-resolution files and so what you say is very useful. By the way, regarding PS audio I had the following exchange with them on about the topic we've been discussing (should one buy a preamp with a DAC in it) on YouTube and got a reply! 

Me: Why doesn't PSA make an entry-level preamp and DAC as separates? What compromises did you accept for the Stellar GainCell and why? Thanks so much.

PS Audio
3 hours ago
”We have a pair in the works right now but they won't see the light of day until later this year.“

News we can use, perhaps. 
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