Adjusting speaker positioning. What, if anything, to expect?

This message is for Rego. The recommended distance for magico is from the back of the speaker. Not the front of the speaker. Warmest regards Joe

The XLO TEST CD is not to be confused with Sheffield. This what it looks like,

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F192758379171

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation, Millercarbon. Would you mind clarifying some of the terminology you used so I can follow what you are saying carefully. What exactly do you mean by "imaging". I’ve heard the term used many times, but never had anything but a vague or loose understanding of what it means.

Imaging is one of many audio metaphors. One thing they all have in common, they have to cover a wide spectrum. Another is they’re often used by people with little experience. So no surprise if it seems vague.

At one end of the spectrum of imaging you have the sense of the singer being somewhere in between the speakers. This is one small step up from where it sounds like its coming from both speakers together and spread all around in between. This is not very good imaging and would be called diffuse, vague, or my personal favorite, crap.

Way on over at the other end of the spectrum you have the jaw-dropping sensation of a live human being actually being there, and it is as if the speakers no longer even exist. You stare in disbelief and wonder if they are even working. This imaging is called palpable presence. The image isn’t just a location, its lungs and chest and throat and mouth and lips, and yeah this is partly imagination but you can reach a level where imagination is hardly even a factor any more, you are gonna experience this whether you want to or not. Michael Fremer’s term for this is there’s more there there.

The whole range in which this imaging happens, left to right and front to rear, is the sound stage. At the low end different instruments are somewhere sort of to the left or right. Sometimes you might tell them apart but a lot of the time they’re all mixed together. We say the sound is congealed. At the high end each and every individual instrument is clear and distinct in every respect from its harmonic signature to its location and even the way the sound it makes echoes around the acoustic recording space. When every individual source is clear and separate and distinct this way we say the imaging is precise or there is air around the images. Air as in space. But you have to watch out, because a lot of these terms are thrown around by noobs who have different ideas and equate air with top end extension, which is a whole different thing. But hey, it happens. So watch out.

Also when you refer to "bass and mid-range balance" what are you meaning? I’m only guessing, but Is it the amount of one in relation to the other, or something entirely different?

Yes its relative. Since you don’t have a lot of room to maneuver and since speakers are a hassle you can experience this just fine with a laptop or even a cell phone. Play some music and hold it out at arms length. Then walk over by a wall, or place it on a desk, anything like that, you will hear the sound change immediately. Same thing happens with all speakers everywhere. Put em where you like em.

As you suggest, I will be careful to keep everything absolutely symmetrical to the 1/16" inch if need be. Thanks for pointing out the need to be that exact.The current set-up when you sit in the center of the couch is an equilateral triangle with the speakers 8’ apart on center and the listener eight feet from the front of either when seated. Does this sound like a reasonable arrangement? The speakers are toed out a bit from that, so I’ll toe them in as you mentioned so they are pointed directly at the listener’s
head to have a solid center image to start with, and proceed from there.

I get a lot of flak for saying this but precision symmetry is all. My fallback is the framing square and tape measure. One year at CES we struggled for hours until I used a tape measure and framing square. Boom. Done.

One last question for you or anybody. How far should the sound stage extend beyond the speakers, if at all? I read somewhere on site the sound stage should not extend to the left or right of the left and right speakers unless they are wired out of phase. Is that so? The sound stage now often seems to emanate from inside the shelf area holding the components between and in back of the speakers.

Yeah, you will read a lot of stuff somewhere on this site. The worst are the ones that get just enough right to hook you into thinking they are helping only later (if you’re lucky) realizing they led you far astray.

Don’t waste one second worrying about this kind of stuff. Ultimately your goal isn’t to be wide or deep or palpable or any of that. Your goal is to be the recording. Whatever that is. For good or for bad. Whatever moves you even a little bit away from feeling like you’re listening to a really good stereo and a little bit closer to feeling like you are there, that is what you want. And there’s a lot more to it but this is where it all starts.

Geoffkait, thanks for the clarification on the XLO versus the Sheffield test CD and the link you provided. Is yours literally made of gold like the one in the link says it is. What next?

Millercarbon, thank you again for your detailed answers to my questions . I’ve a better understanding now of what imaging is. And I’ll break out the framing square and tape measure to get those measurements correct. I’ve some machinist calipers that could easily get those measurement exact to the thousandth of an inch, so carpentry type measurement tolerances are easy pickings.

So, if ii read you right, you feel a sound stage where the instrumentalists and vocalists appear to be located outside of the speakers, but between then, would be an acceptable outcome, and not a thing to worry about? I thought something might be wrong if they did not appear to be spread out more across the front of the room as they would be in a live performance setting.

This is kind of new to me so I probably am focusing on something regarding sound stage that doesn’t really matter, like you said. I am trying by this thread to sort out what does matter and what I should be paying attention to and trying to achieve. Thanks for your help in that regard and taking the time to offer explanations.

Mike

Careful skyscraper, you have unwittingly stumbled into the geoffkait zone, a region of endless confusing possibilities masquerading as science.  

I have the XLO CD. Perfectly set up the out of phase will indeed seem to be coming from everywhere and nowhere. Even more amazing, there's another track where Doug Sax stands in an empty room talking and hitting a clavis. He walks around the room talking and hitting, and if you're set up right its just uncanny, especially when he goes behind you and damn if it doesn't sound like he's behind you! 

Getting this done the way they say on the CD, moving one speaker or the other a little at a time, that's what the CES guys tried, and I wish you good luck. That's the difference between trial and error and a more systematic approach:  You might get there, eventually, vs you will get there, and fast.  

This might be a good time to reflect on the wisdom of taking advice from a guy who refuses to post his system, famously brags has no speakers, and no wire, and claims if you pay him money he will make your system sound better while talking to you on the phone. Seriously. The Teleportation Tweak. I am not making this up. http://www.machinadynamica.com/ Read him at your own risk. 

Just do like I said. Get the speakers perfectly symmetrical. Point them straight ahead and listen. Point them straight at your head and listen. Few of us like them pointed straight at us. Most like them aimed at a point a foot or two further back. That is, toed out a little. That's me. Some like them toed out even more. Who knows, different room, different speakers, I might go for that too. Go and listen. You will see.