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Go for sub or larger speakers?

What is your experience with sub integration, is it really as hard as they say and the success is far from guaranteed? Am I better off going for larger model if I want more of low end?
Specifically, should I go with ATC SCM50ASL and subs, or ATC SCM100ASL?
This is not for home theather, just two channel system.
sashav
ckoffend
684 posts
 
I am with Stanwal for the most part, though I haven't rolled any sub off as low as 25 HZ.

To me the integration is the different speed characteristics. A "slow" sub is very difficult to mate with speakers. This is the area that is most noticeable as well in listening to music.

I am suspicious when I see subs with 15" drivers advertised (especially if they don't cost a fortune $5K-$10K+, and to some degree even with those that do cost a fortune). A 15" driver is a lot of driver to move quickly and stop quickly.

In my book, the faster sub will be easier to integrate. I would rather give up some absolute bottom frequency extension to insure I get the speed I need (especially with your ATC speakers).
countingbackwards
138 posts
 
For 2-channel audio, I prefer to avoid a sub. I'd rather that a top-rung speaker designer design my crossovers, than me.
martykl
3,578 posts
 
I use the hardware Edorr identified, but in a different configuration. I filter the main signal with the NHT X2 and run the bass signal out of the X2 into a Velodyne SMS-1 room EQ unit, because:

My current room, like every other room I've measured, gets very ugly below app. 125hz. I can (and do) fix it down to app 75 hz with bass busters. Below that, active bass EQ is the only workable solution that I've found.

If you run main speakers that have any real output below 75hz, it will IME be very difficult to get seamless integration of the subs and mains because the main speakers are contributing very lumpy bass until their roll-off. If you filter the mains to remove bass below 75hz (or at whatever frequency your treated room dictates) you can get smooth response from the mains, smooth response from the EQ'd subs, and a neat hand-off that will hard/impossible to hear (for me anyway).

If your main speakers have little to no output below 80, 90, 100hz, (i.e. Sunfire cinema Ribbon Monitors)you can probably run them full range and "snug up" the subs from below. Otherwise, I prefer to filter the mains.

As Stanwal, noted, there are 2 schools of thought, and this is the school I'm enrolled in. Others take the alternate route.

Two more thoughts:

1) "Fast" is a descriptor I dislike for subs. People tend to think small drivers are fast, and - IMHO- that's not the case. I think "highly damped" probably communicates the idea at hand - tight bass with little overhang - but this characteristic is not related to driver size.

2) My set-up does put the NHT between my ARC LS-25 and my ARC 130SE, but it keeps the Velodyne SMS-1 out of the main signal path. The NHT seems to be benign (to my ear at least) but the Velo has no business in the main path.

Marty
edorr
714 posts
 
Ckoffend - you are dead on. I had 15" Revel B15s and the 13.5" JL 113 in the same room, and although the Revels go somewhat deeper, the JL's are faster and easier to integrate.
edorr
714 posts
 
Martykl, I'm sure in some systems your approach will work better than running the mains at full range. Its a trade of between smoother integration and the degradation of running the mains signal through an additional active filter. If I had gone down this path, I would personally not have used the NHTX2, but get a higher grade crossover like a Marchand XM44.

This may be pure snobbery because I have no proof whatsoever an XM44 sounds better than the cheap NHT, but I would not like the idea of running my main signal through a cheap crossover when I have some very high grade electronics upstream and downstream. (Sort of the "weakest link" theory). Your appear to be owning some fairly expensive kit yourself, so I would definitely try out a higher grade crossover sometime and see if you get any improvement.
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