Are big subwoofers viable for 2 channel music?

Hello John,

     No problem with the delay, I usually just check for new responses on threads once a day, no hurry.  I’ve heard about the mini-DSP previously but the benefit of retrieving more recorded bass information from recordings is new to me.       I’d be very interested in hearing a high quality system using multiple subsonic subs and a mini-DSP playing both music and HT source material.  I think I’d need to experience the increased bass extension in person to determine whether updating my bass system would be worth time, effort and expense involved, which would include 4 new subsonic subs, the mini-DSP and learning how to properly use it.  I’m currently torn because I’m fairly certain I would enjoy the added bass extension, likely perceiving it as being even more realistic and palpable than my current system which I perceive as having near sota bass response even though the bass extension is limited to 20 Hz. 
     There’s also the advantage of how convenient my current system is to operate and it’s overall simplicity.  I just use an Oppo 205 Blu-ray player as a 5.1 Audio surround processor, with surround output channels run direct to separate amps and speakers for HT. And a separate preamp with ht passthru for music. The 4-sub bass system, with a separate sub amp/control unit that has settings for xover frequency, volume and phase, switches automatically between the summed bass on music and the LFE bass on HT based on the preamp input I select.     This is very convenient because the settings on the sub amp/control unit don’t require changing for either music or HT, they remain constant with a xover of 40 Hz, volume at just under 50% and all subs in-phase.  It’s basically set and forget. I’m concerned this won’t be true with the addition of a mini-DSP.
     I completely agree with you about the benefits of getting my room measured.  However, I was considering buying a good mic, downloading REW to my laptop and doing the measurements myself.  I thought this would be a good method of learning the details of room measurements and gaining experience in understanding the relationship between objective measured room response and my subjective perceptions of the sound in my own room and system.
      Thanks for all the very useful info.

Tim

@noble100 if you are willing to invest some time learning REW, I think it would really help you understand what is happening in your room. I have experimented with the software but I need to invest more time. The friend that suggested I buy my current sub-woofers offered to measure and set them up for me. 
 
After my friend setup a flat response curve I learned that my ears do not hear the same as a microphone. I adjusted my response to what sounded good to my ear. I did save my previous measurements so that I can always return to a relatively flat response. Now that I have adjusted I am  curious how my measurements have changed.

It sounds like your setup is well thought out. I use an OPPO 103 in the basement system. My pre-amplifier has a home theater equalization setting. It also offers settings for 2 channel or multi-channel music. I can save sub bass adjustments according to the various settings (cinema, music, Dolby etc). When I select the music or cinema modes my bass settings are loaded. 

Good luck with your measurements, I hope you find audio bliss.

John
      
   

@noble100 --

Hello phusis,

Thanks for your detailed response. I now have a much better understanding of your system preferences, priorities and goals. I looked at your system pic and description on your profile page and admire the unique and independent path you decided to take on your personal audio journey.
Your system certainly looks unique, interesting, beautiful and impressive, I’d love to hear it, or a similar one, in action sometime. You’re obviously telling the truth about the size and weight of TH subs. I like the looks of your subs and main speakers but, if I was to switch to THs in my system and living room, my wife would likely be chasing me around our house with a large frying pan targeted at my head.
I have a limited understanding of the appeal of horn speakers, their efficiency, sound qualities, dynamics and ease even at very high SPLs. The first pair of speakers I purchased as an adult in about 1979, was a brand new pair of the original Klipsch Heresy speakers, in unfinished birch wood to save some money, for exactly $300/pair.
I really enjoyed those speakers during college with a TT, 40 watt ss Yamaha CR640 receiver and no sub. I still regret not knowing enough about audio at that time to at least try using a tube amp with them. Now I use 1,200 watt class D monoblock amps with a pair of inefficient planar-magnetic speakers and 4 subs. Oh well.

Thanks,
Tim

Tim, thanks for your kind words, and apologies (on my part as well) for the delayed response. I looked at your current system via your profile, and I find it to be an impressive looking (and by all accounts -sounding) set-up. In many ways I imagine those Magnepan’s of yours to be speakers I’d enjoy. I take it they are very coherent, tonally rather accurate while yielding great scale and commendable dynamics (micro as well as macro)? Not to mention being highly resolved and presenting a huge soundstage? How would you describe their sound, and what about it in particular do you like? Your DBA sub set-up is likely a splendid augmentation as well. And that’s one great TV set you got there (I have the older LG OLED 65" B8 variant).

"Unique" and "independent" - even "beautiful;" your words flatter me. Well, I guess when I see something that catches my interest on this exciting journey of ours, and that speaks to the accumulated and randomly selected bits and pieces of info that enters one’s mind (and one deems important, for whatever reason), I go for it - not matter the consensus or gist among audiophiles. For some years now I’ve become progressively interested in the overall "presentation" of sound - that is, what’s the shape, if you would, of the "radiation bubble" (a phrase coined, I believe, by Tom Danley) that meets the listener: is it, preferably, homogeneous and of a whole, smooth sphere-like piece; is it more lumpy or diffuse even; of an oval shape, circular, or something else? Discerning the shape of said presentation is rather instantaneous, but it says a great deal about a pair of speakers ability to cohere (not least auditioned via mono recordings) and have the sound of each of the driver elements form into what would more or less successfully emulate a point source. This is certainly what I’m working towards with my own set-up, and I believe to be on the right path here, both with what I have now and perhaps even more so with the next "rocket stage" (not to be confused with rocket science) I’m on to.

Another hobby horse of mine is headroom, as you already know, and this is achieved more effectively with high efficiency designs - horns, certainly. It’s particularly important where bass goes as loads of energy can be released here, and many underestimate the sheer power and volume needed in the lower frequency spectrum (another recent thread on these pages brings this up). It’s not about overpowering the presentation with bass running the balance overly hot, but simply accommodating proper bass energy that’s effortlessly available at most any desired SPL. Anchoring the sound this way I find to be utterly important, and tapped horns are a great way to wring out the most of a given driver with minimal stored energy in this enclosure type and relieving the driver effectively; the tapped horn itself does the heavy lifting. Should you ever come to Scandinavia you’re most welcome to visit and have my set-up demoed.

Oh, the Heresy’s. Haven’t they been around for close to 60 years now? Never heard them, but I imagine they are very lively and entertaining speakers, musical even. Perhaps you’ll come full circle at some point with high efficiency speakers yet again, although at the risk of seeing that frying pan come into frightful use :)

Hello phusis,

     Despite our differences of opinion on certain specific audio subjects we’ve previously had, overall it seems to me that our system perspectives, preferences, goals and journeys may be more similar than different.
      I believe the metaphor of an audio journey we all take is very descriptive and accurate.  We all begin at a certain point, with a system that reflects our lack of knowledge, experience and $ at that specific point in time.  Looking at our systems at today’s specific point in time, our current systems almost certainly are very different than our initial systems.  However, our current systems still generally reflect our current, or recent, levels of accumulated knowledge, experience and $, just as our initial audio systems did.
     How did we get from there to here?
     I believe it’s exactly the result of what you stated:
”Well, I guess when I see something that catches my interest on this exciting journey of ours, and that speaks to the accumulated and randomly selected bits and pieces of info that enters one’s mind (and one deems important, for whatever reason), I go for it- no matter the consensus or gist among audiophiles.”
     Well, what do you know?, we’ve both been following very similar paths on our audio journeys, following our own personal levels of accumulated knowledge, experience, preferences and goals.  But we both wound up having unique but very different systems?  Excellent, that’s exactly how our audio journeys are meant to evolve, with no two being identical but all reflecting our personal preferences     I would describe my overall system goal is the sound qualities you’d experience listening to live blues, jazz or rock music at a smaller venue with good acoustics.  I enjoy the experience of hearing music played live and in person, especially the full range sound from deepest bass to highest treble, the power of bass notes that can be felt as well as heard and the powerful dynamics of musical instruments and human voices when heard live in person.
     I’ve found that the lack of powerful, seemingly effortless and unlimited bass and bass dynamics are the best indicator that you’re listening to reproduced music from a recording rather than actual live music.  The power and dynamics of higher pitched instruments and voices are, of course, also important in conveying  the perception that you’re listening to live music.  It’s just that using my Magnepan 3.7i main speakers, I’v found it relatively easy to get the mid and treble frequencies sounding tonally accurate, with live sounding impact, dynamics and holographic imaging. 
     I’ve found getting the bass sounding right, however, is much more difficult in most rooms than getting the rest of the audible spectrum sounding right.  I understand the valid reasons for this reality but won’t digress to describe them in detail right now.
     Fortunately, The AK Debra 4-sub DBA system has proven to be an excellent complement to the 3.7i speakers in my system.  My main speakers reproduce bass in a very similar manner to how they reproduce the rest of the audio spectrum, fast, smooth, detailed and coherently, but they only have a rated bass extension of 35 Hz.  I run them full range and run the 4 subs in mono mode with a crossover frequency of 40 Hz.  This extends my system’s bass down to 20 Hz and the speed, smoothness and detail of the bass results in a seamless overall sound integration with the 3.7l main speakers.  
     This all has resulted in my being very satisfied with my current system.  I’ve really been enjoying the perception of the musicians performing live in my room or being present at the venue at a live performance. depending on the recording played.
      Thank you for your kind invitation for a demo of your horn system if I’m ever near your home in Scandinavia.  I’d love to do so but, unfortunately, I don’t get up near your neighborhood too often.  Of course, if you ever find yourself in the American Midwest near Indiana, you’re always welcome to drop my my place for a demo, too.

Best wishes,
      Tim

I haven’t heard all the DBA/Swarm setup, But I do know the best bass systems I’ve heard were Columns. This may sound like a 70-80s design but still the most accurate and detailed system was again Bass columns. Whether infinite baffle, sealed accelerometer servo system, multi driver and size, passive radiator tuning, OB servo system with step baffle amps. ALL were a column style.

I’ve heard a few swarm systems NOW over the last year or so...

Good yes, great NO

But columns at this point in time for me is still KING, and have been for 20+ years.

A pair of 4-8 drivers per side is a good place to start. They actually take up less floor space, but cover FAR more ground evenly, in any application, including HT. I’ve heard as many as 4 in a system.
perfection... One still works better than most pairs of lowriders,
The Taller, The Better,

I know omnidirectional, NOT above 80, most pure BASS columns are 80-150 or <. Above 70-80 hz they get pretty directional. and very stereoish..(is that a word?)

Ay but what do I know, I made one out of an underground concrete vault, I got off a job site. a shop sub... 20 cubic foot interior, yea I know how to make BASS, really I do.. 2 18 inch PA 104s. City block of bass with that thing.

Regards