IM Distortion, Speakers and the Death of Science


One topic that often comes up is perception vs. measurements.

"If you can't measure it with common, existing measurements it isn't real."

This idea is and always will be flawed. Mind you, maybe what you perceive is not worth $1, but this is not how science works. I'm reminded of how many doctors and scientists fought against modernizing polio interventions, and how only recently did the treatment for stomach ulcers change radically due to the curiosity of a pair of forensic scientists.

Perception precedes measurement.  In between perception and measurement is (always) transference to visual data.  Lets take an example.

You are working on phone technology shortly after Bell invents the telephone. You hear one type of transducer sounds better than another.  Why is that?  Well, you have to figure out some way to see it (literally), via a scope, a charting pen, something that tells you in an objective way why they are different, that allows you to set a standard or goal and move towards it.

This person probably did not set out to measure all possible things. Maybe the first thing they decide to measure is distortion, or perhaps frequency response. After visualizing the raw data the scientist then has to decide what the units are, and how to express differences. Lets say it is distortion. In theory, there could have been a lot of different ways to measure distortion.  Such as Vrms - Vrms (expected) /Hz. Depending on the engineer's need at the time, that might have been a perfectly valid way to measure the output.

But here's the issue. This may work for this engineer solving this time, and we may even add it to the cannon of common measurements, but we are by no means done.

So, when exactly are we done?? At 1? 2? 5?  30?  The answer is we are not.  There are several common measurements for speakers for instance which I believe should be done more by reviewers:

- Compression
- Intermodulation ( IM ) Distortion
- Distortion

and yet, we do not. IM distortion is kind of interesting because I had heard about it before from M&K's literature, but it reappeared for me in the blog of Roger Russel ( http://www.roger-russell.com ) formerly from McIntosh. I can't find the blog post, but apparently they used IM distortion measurements to compare the audibility of woofer changes quite successfully.

Here's a great example of a new measurement being used and attributed to a sonic characteristic. Imagine the before and after.  Before using IM, maybe only distortion would have been used. They were of course measuring impedance and frequency response, and simple harmonic distortion, but Roger and his partner could hear something different not expressed in these measurements, so, they invent the use of it here. That invention is, in my mind, actual audio science.

The opposite of science would have been to say "frequency, impedance, and distortion" are the 3 characteristics which are audible, forever. Nelson pass working with the distortion profile, comparing the audible results and saying "this is an important feature" is also science. He's throwing out the normal distortion ratings and creating a whole new set of target behavior based on his experiments.  Given the market acceptance of his very expensive products I'd say he's been damn good at this.

What is my point to all of this?  Measurements in the consumer literature have become complacent. We've become far too willing to accept the limits of measurements from the 1980's and fail to develop new standard ways of testing. As a result of this we have devolved into camps who say that 1980's measures are all we need, those who eschew measurements and very little being done to show us new ways of looking at complex behaviors. Some areas where I believe measurements should be improved:

  • The effects of vibration on ss equipment
  • Capacitor technology
  • Interaction of linear amps with cables and speaker impedance.

We have become far too happy with this stale condition, and, for the consumers, science is dead.
erik_squires
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mahgister" you seems to idolizing technology...Not me... I prefer more sophisticated ideas and maths..."

You are trying to use reason, science, and math to argue with some one (heaudio) who relies instead on his inner feelings, "gut" instinct and intuition he "believes" that he is correct it originates, derives, and is rooted in his faith, conviction, and a form of religion and for that reason you will not convince him of his misunderstandings about the very basic, fundamental, central aspects of AI.

" Mathematics is about creating concepts... Algorithm is subsidiary to that creation and cannot replace it..."

That is true but  feelings and "gut" sense replace all for those who are so oriented, convinced, and "determined".
clearthink

I am a bit stubborn myself, and he was too arrogant against anyone...I am a bit arrogant myself but I dont treat people less knowledgeable than me with the side of my hand.... I want him to know that all people here are not vulnerable prey to his "knowledge"... 

But he is polite … I appreciate that....
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To put it more simply mahgister, you have not put forth any arguments that suggest any insurmountable barriers to artificial intelligence achieving and being able to achieve anything humans can do w.r.t. intelligence or creativity.
Do you know the " halting problem" in computer science?

If yes...


Do you know the peculiarities of the primes distribution in number theory?
It is impossible to reduce prime number theory to algorithmic theory of any kind....

If yes...


Do you know why organic intelligence and human in particular know how to extricate itself of a road without end? (Halting problem)


Because the organic intelligence is not algorithmic precisely but symbolic species....


Do you know the Euclid proof about the infinity of primes number?


Do you know that modern maths were inaugurated By Cantor about the creation of a new family of concepts linked to infinities...


No A. I will never create the concept of infinities, not even the concept of the actual set of prime numbers and the geometry of P- adic numbers for example....


You know why?


Because it is symbolic and not exclusively algorithmic concept....And without symbolic thinking the A. I. will be captive of a road without end...


If you want to know what is a symbolic form, read the 1000 pages of Ernst Cassirer...

a caricatural hint: Symbolic+algorythmic = symbolic form

It seems that Penrose intuition about Godel and maths is way over your head already and this is the more simple and simplistic way to approach the problem tough...Penrose is a real thinker not a "scientist" and he knows a little bit more maths than most....

I will give you a hint: algorithmic thinking is linked to symbolic thinking concepts creation and the 2 together exceed any possible A. I.

... read Zalamea + Cassirer...

In a word any A. I. is captive in his universe, living being are not.... An old problem humans call the "soul"...

By the way, you cannot put an argument to reach truth.... You cannot understand what is over your head with what you called an argumentation game....

IT IS NECESSARY TO CREATE A CONCEPT BEFORE UNDERSTANDING ONE... This sound a bit paradoxical to you I bet?  :)

 You do not teach yourself mathematics with arguments.... You must develop symbolic perception and intuition.... maths is not reducible to rhetoric or logic even of the most algorithm sophisticated kind....maths is a symbolic form realm and a sea of concepts way more powerful than logic alone irreducible to any calculi...