Do I need an overhang gauge, in addition to a protractor to position cartridge correctly?

yogiboy

What is your opinion about this statement from another audiogoner that was posted last year? 
... the quality of the drive unit, the quality of the tonearm, the quality of the cartridge and phono stage and compatibility/setting of all these things (other than setting overhang) and the setting of proper VTF, VTA, SRA, and azimuth are far more important than worrying about how much arc-induced and overhang- induced (the two are related) distortion one has. I learned this the hard way. I will not go into details but please trust me ...

Without some details, it's difficult to respond.

 I have experimented with simply slamming a cartridge all the way forward in the headshell, placing the cartridge mid-way along the headshell slots, and slammed all the way back, each time re-setting VTF, VTA, SRA, and azimuth. I would defy anyone to pick out the differences.

Perhaps "slamming" is just a figure of speech here.

 I have 30K of tube separates, a Manley Steelhead, and DeVore O/93’s. I submit that any differences in distortion due to sub-optimum arcs and deviations from the two null points and where they are located (those peaks in distortion) are masked several times over by distortion imposed by my tubed gear and my loudspeakers.

Maybe he's right. I haven't heard his system.

My point is that getting perfect alignment is often, not always, like putting lipstick on a pig ... the answer had to be in perfect alignment when it was clearly everything else but.

You can measure the distortion caused my an improperly aligned phono cartridge and it can certainly be audible, although more with some LPs than with others. It's especially noticeable in the higher frequencies.

But regardless of that, it's important to have proper alignment if you also seek minimum wear on the both the stylus and your LPs.

Dear @yogiboy  : Everything of the basic parameters in the cartridge/tonearm/TT set up is important to do it.

Any pivoted tonearm design has a tracking error due that can track/move it tangentially during play back, it's inherent to any pivot normal tonearm designs.

That that gentleman can't detect a different kind of sound in between those 3 cartridge headshell positions he mentioned does not means no one can detect it and does not means he is rigth because he is way wrong no matters what.

An accurated/precise cartridge/tonearm alignment is a must to have to mantain at minimum the tracking error and tracking distortions levels along the LP recorded surface during playback.
For detect overhang set up mistakes we need some kind of characteristics: very good to high room/system resolution, very good experienced " ears ", a " bullet proof " evaluation/comparison system overall process where we use always the same LP tracks ( several LP's. ).

I know I can detect an overhang set up mistake because I learned years ago just by accident: I mounted a cartridge 2-3mm additionals to the correct overhang and in my first listening LP's with that failure in the overhang set up I like what I was hearing till I took in count that something was wrong down there because even that the high frequency range was really good the other two frequency ranges were not.
So I check the set up and noted my error then fixed and problem solved.

@cleeds  yes, we can detect it through the high frequency range but we have to have really very good training about.

I agree with that gentleman that our electronics or speakers or room develops higher distortion levels than the overhang levels but that does not means we can't detect it.

Now, could be that some peoplecan like what they are listening the more with overhang error that with the rigth overhang set up but this is another kind of matters.

R.

Dear @bilwojo :  ""  Cartridge must be aligned straight in the headshel  .."""

well, in reality what needs to be straigth aligned with the lines in the protractor is the cantilever it self not the cartridge.

R.

auliruegas

... what needs to be straigth aligned with the lines in the protractor is the cantilever it self not the cartridge ...

Agreed! That's why I think the use of a mirrored gauge is necessary for best results - using a reference mark on the gauge and the reflection of the cantilever itself to achieve tangency.

Some of you guys I think love word games even more than audio. One of the main things that makes turntables mysterious and difficult is all these silly little debates that it seems the world revolves around to you, but to any normal guy its nothing. Overhang is just like that. Technically yeah your spindle ref is more correct. To the average guy setting up a turntable it sure looks to him like he's adjusting the distance the stylus is from the tone arm pivot. Which he is. Exactly.

Same thing with the cantilever/body thing. Yeah I know, look at the cantilever not the body. Even Peter Ledermann says so, and who am I to argue? He's right. Of course. Just one question: who's ever had a cartridge so whack this mattered? 

Actually I lied. Another question. If you set the cartridge down and the cantilever is cock-eyed, how can you be sure its the cantilever and not tone arm stiction causing that? Which if you care to look, golly, the same Peter Ledermann says to watch out for this.
https://sound-smith.com/faq/how-do-i-set-my-cartridges-overhang-adjustment
Stiction. See? 

I could go on and on with these all day. But that's your guys job. Mine is to help guys get set up and enjoying music. Not navel gazing and worrying and spending more on mounting the cartridge than on the cartridge itself. 

Records are by far the best gateway drug into the world of high end audio. More and more people are turning to records because they hear the difference. Even more would if they weren't so held back by it seeming so darn hard to understand.

Why not, instead of making it harder and harder, just give em a hand?