Direct Drive vs. Idler Drive vs. Belt drive

i’ve not heard all the best vintage direct drives, and so don’t want to claim i have. but i’ve heard the best one, and that is the Rockport Siruis III, which i owned for 8 years. but the very best one is a Sirius III modified and improved by my friend Mik, who i referenced earlier in this thread. he owns 4 of those. the Sirius III was designed in 1995, so some might not consider it ’vintage’. but that is now 25 years ago.

likely the next favorites would be;

2. Denon DN-308

3. Denon DP100
3.Technics SP-10mk3 (i owned a ’Dobbins-plinthed’ Mk3 for 2 years)
3.Pioneer Exlcusive P3

4.Sony PS-X9
4.Kenwood L-07D

this is assuming primo condition and 2-4 might be different for different listeners. and maybe i missed one. the Goldmund might fit somewhere in this.

i would place the NOS EMT 948 just below this group.

i consider my NVS sitting on the active platform as competitive with any of those. and forced to choose between any of those, possibly excepting the Sirius III modified my Mik, i would choose my CS Port belt drive as my preference for most music.

just one guy’s opinion. 10 people might have 10 different lists.

Dear @mikelavigne : I can’t argue nothing in your answer post due that’s way coherent and make sense to me.

However I like to understand ( not only with what you are listening through your room/system but coming from some one else. ) what is really happening down there even that I’m not " there " but your posts speaks a lot but exist things that maybe words can’t explain thae way I need it.

Let me explain it in other way and please we can ( for the moment ) take off/out the TT drive issue and analize a little what can modulates the sound you are listening other that the recorded groove modulations because I think that those other very tiny modulations puts its own " color " that can or not makes subttle differences in between your 3 great TTs:

all the 3 TTs are building with different blend of materials at each different places inside the whole TT and the blend of those materials and depending were are used tends to resonate/vibrate under dynamic stage/when are spinning during play. Those kind of very tiny or micro resonances/vibrations are different ( example: at different frequency. ) in each one of 3 TTs.

Now, what happens when the cartridge start to track/ride the LP groove modulations inside that whole mechanical circuit ( of course that it’s too the lectrical side but it’s not the issue here. ) formed by: TT/tonearm/cartridge/LP?

As I said that circuit is a mechanical one and we can’t avoid the Newton Laws down there that lives down there one way or the other.

When the stylus start to ride the groove modulations that act develops many other tiny modulations as: feedback from the LP surface due to the friction of the stylus tip forces, the surface of the LP and due to that very high friction forces makes that exist too a feedback from the LP surface that is in touch with the platter or platter mat .
These are the first tiny developed modulations that goes mixed through the stylus/cantilever along the groove modulations ( the cartridge can’t make any difference between the groove modulations and the fedback modulations, just took it as it was the same. Is a very sensitive movements sensor. ).
That kind of feedback is followed by the cartridge body self feedback developed by the cantilever/stylus tracking and comes a new feedback movement that’s very fast transmitted to the cantilever and that same cartridge body feedback and through the top plate of the cartridge is transmitted to the tonearm headshel and starts to resonates in between ( this is totally independent of the resonance frequency in between the tonearm/cartridge and its compliance. ) and transmitted through the tonearm and then to the arm board but does not disappears because part of those kind of resonances/vibrations return through that arm board to the cantilever/stylus and mixed again with the true groove modulations.

Things do not finish here but I think you have the idea of what I try to explain about.

At the very high level of resolution that you are listening all those it matters ( at least for me ) because even that all 3 TTs are extremely well designed and excecuted and with the necessary overall damping ( that’s why the designers choosed materiasl and where to use it in the design. ) that each TT color exist and you are hearing it because no one can’t avoid it can’t makes that disappears from that mechanical circuit.

Normally those developed " modulations " affects the more to the bass range that at the same time it modulates ( color ) the other two frequency ranges. My common sense tells me that all those is happening but as you pointed out in your answer to me I can be wrong and I really appreciated your comments about even that what you are listening something magical for the first time in your life. I whish I can do that some time in the futura if God Gives me the life.

Thank’s in advance,
R.

Hi @mikelavigne ,

Yes, all people have a different taste.
One my friend had in his system:Kenwood L-07D, EMT 948, Technics SP10mk2, Yamaha GT-2000.
He liked Yamaha the most and EMT the second.
But, to his taste: L-07D and SP10mk2 sound too sterile.
In any case most of these top vintage Japanese and German DDs are very good machines.
I'm not a typical audiophile and I don't change equipment too often. I have been using EMT 948 since 2011 and I am not going to change it. The truth is, I could live with Lenco L78. It was a very nice, musical turntable.

Regards,
Alex

He liked Yamaha the most and EMT the second.
But, to his taste: L-07D and SP10mk2 sound too sterile.

to say something like that a person have to use the same tonearm and cartridge on all turntables and compare them with the same phono stage in the same system. 

Dear Raul,

i respect your perspective on microscopic groove actions and groove modulation effects of drive systems....

When the stylus start to ride the groove modulations that act develops many other tiny modulations as: feedback from the LP surface due to the friction of the stylus tip forces, the surface of the LP and due to that very high friction forces makes that exist too a feedback from the LP surface that is in touch with the platter or platter mat .
These are the first tiny developed modulations that goes mixed through the stylus/cantilever along the groove modulations ( the cartridge can’t make any difference between the groove modulations and the fedback modulations, just took it as it was the same. Is a very sensitive movements sensor. ).
That kind of feedback is followed by the cartridge body self feedback developed by the cantilever/stylus tracking and comes a new feedback movement that’s very fast transmitted to the cantilever and that same cartridge body feedback and through the top plate of the cartridge is transmitted to the tonearm headshel and starts to resonates in between ( this is totally independent of the resonance frequency in between the tonearm/cartridge and its compliance. ) and transmitted through the tonearm and then to the arm board but does not disappears because part of those kind of resonances/vibrations return through that arm board to the cantilever/stylus and mixed again with the true groove modulations.

no mechanical device is perfect, which also goes for my three turntables.

however; each of turntables do address these issues in their own ways. and like any high performance piece of gear, i have tuned each of these appropriately to get them to be optimized.

as far as groove modulations; obviously the NVS has direct drive and a heavy 45 pound platter to eliminate that concern, the Saskia uses the idler wheel leverage to overcome this, and the CS Port an air bearing and air float inertia of a 60 pound platter to address this. i get zero congestion at musical peaks from any of these tt's......which is where this issue reveals itself typically.

as far as microscopic resonance we again have three different solutions; the NVS (closest to my massive bass towers) uses the Taiko Tana active isolation as well as the Durand record weight. the Saskia uses it's 180 pound decoupled plinth, and stillpoint like footers, and the CS Port it's air bearing and air float platter, as well as it's 6 pound record weight.

all three have apparently very calm stylus in groove tracking.

these things are always degrees of success, trade-offs and compromises. again, anything mechanical can only approach perfection. my ears tell me these approach it closely. :-) 

all three challenge my big Studer's for musical rightness......the gold standard.