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Speaker shootout update; aggressive treble eliminating some (fairly?)

I've been trying out speakers in a complicated shoot out, both bookshelves and towers — all in my home with my gear. I'm looking for speakers obtainable up to about $4k but could go up (or down) a bit if the right thing came along.

Basic facts: All speakers were run in at least 100 hours. Room is 27 x 14 x 6.5 ceilings. Powering with all QS tubes, 60w, NOS, tube R2R dac, and decent cables. No terrible reflection points; room not overly live or dampened. REL R 328 sub available but I did most listening without it.

Recent auditions, type:

Klipsch RP 600-M (budget singleton of the group)
Fritz Rev Carbon 7 mk II (bookshelf, 2 way, soft dome)
Focal 936 (tower, 3 way, inverted metal)
Martin Logan Motion 60s XTi (tower, 3 way, AMT)

Coming soon:

Salk SS 6M (bookshelf, 2 way, beryllium)
Dynaudio Evoke 30's (tower, 3 way, soft dome)

Let me speak just to the problems, rather than what was good about the speakers. So far, I've found the Klipsch, Focal, and especially the Martin Logans were all too bright — forward, aggressive, "turn it down" treble.

The ML's were the most impossible to tame and hardest to listen to on more tracks. (I did a lot of hanging of towels and other dampeners and other soft things to try to see if I could bring them to heel. I varied the recordings used. Changed cables/wires. No luck.)

The Focals were occasionally too bright; their bigger problem was a bit too much energy in my small listening space. They were better when I plugged their ports with socks.

I'm looking forward to how the next two speakers sound. The Dynaudio towers, I notice, are 10 inches shorter and half the weight of the other towers; not sure what that might mean, but it could just be right size for my space. I'm looking forward to seeing if the Salks bring more detail to the treble without also being too rolled off or harsh.

Hearing is very personal for physiological and taste reasons. However, if anyone has any thoughts about why I might be experiencing some of the phenomena I am (harsh treble, especially) based on my room or gear, etc., that might help me understand factors I'm not fully appreciating. Thanks.


128x128hilde45
auxinput
2,920 posts
 
This discussion of test tones and REW reminded me of a couple tools I have used.  If you look at deep bass, amroc shows that your room has a couple of nodes at 40/42hz and another one at 62hz.

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=27&w=14&h=6.5&ft=true&r60=0.6

If you decided you need to treat these nodes, the best solution is to start buying GIK Acoustics Scopus tuned membrane bass traps.  Buy 2-4 of the Scopus T40.  Then ask them to make custom T60 models (they will do this for you).


As far as testing for bass NULLs, REW can help, but probably the best way I have found is to do it by ear using test tone sweeps.  You can use the following tool to generate 5 second test tone sweeps:

https://www.wavtones.com/functiongenerator.php

Select the "Sweep 1" option.
Then create and download a separate file for each sweep.  I like to sweeps that cover 10 Hz at a time.  Start with a file where Start Frequency = 20 Hz and Stop Frequency = 30 Hz.  Then generate additional files (such as 30-40, 40-50, etc.).  You can save them all on your computer and then burn a CD.  As you play each sweep, you can hear when the volume of the bass increases or decreases.  The decreased areas are where you have a problem, which can usually be improved by tuned membrane bass traps.
djones51
4,947 posts
 
Like anything DSP can be overused. The only difference I can hear between ARC on and off is the bass loses its boominess from my speakers being to close to the front wall. I can tell from the graphs that's where it's doing the most. 
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
4,974 posts
 
Thanks djones and @mapman. I think I'll order that Minidsp UMIK-1
@cd318 Glad the post is eliciting such a good conversation. I'm learning a lot. Given how much I have to learn, I think the first step is to get a speaker which sounds mostly good — with no dealbreakers. If I'm already thinking about the lengths I might have to go to fix problems, then that is at least a clue to keep trying. I can tweak "good" to "great" later, if need be. We're talking about choosing a hittable pitch to swing at.
@auxinput Thanks for putting my data into this table and for the test tone sweep page. I'll try those.
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
4,974 posts
 
@auxinput By the way, it appears there are tone generators on Spotify, etc. too. Is there a reason not to search out these tones via a streaming service rather than download each one, burn a CD, etc.?
In other words, would this do it?

Audio Test Tones
ALBUM Audio Test Tones
2013 48 min 42 sec
1 kHz 0 dB 10:05
20 Hz -10 dB 0:34
30 Hz -10 dB 0:34
40 Hz -10 dB 0:35
50 Hz -10 dB 0:34
60 Hz -10 dB 0:34
100 Hz -10 dB 0:35
125 Hz -10 dB 0:34
250 Hz -10 dB 0:34
400 Hz -10 dB 0:34
800 Hz -10 dB 0:34
1 000 Hz -10 dB 0:34
1 250 Hz -10 dB 0:35
2 500 Hz -10 dB 0:34
3 150 Hz -10 dB 0:35
4 000 Hz -10 dB 0:35
5 000 Hz -10 dB 0:35
6 000 Hz -10 dB 0:34
7 000 Hz -10 dB 0:35
8 000 Hz -10 dB 0:35
9 000 Hz -10 dB 0:35
10 KHz -10 dB 0:34
11 KHz -10 dB 0:35
12 KHz -10 dB 0:35
13 KHz -10 dB 0:35
14 KHz -10 dB 0:35
15 KHz -10 dB 0:35
16 KHz -10 dB 0:35
17 KHz -10 dB 0:35
18 KHz -10 dB 0:36
440 Hz -10 dB 1:05
Sweep on both channels 0:46
Left and right channel sweep 20 Hz to 20 KHz -10 dB 0:13
Pink noise -10dB 3:04
Pink noise out of phase -10 dB 1:04
200 Hz left and right channels in phase -10 dB 1:07
200 Hz left and right channels out of phase -10 dB 1:06
Left channel 10 KHz -10 dB 1:06
Right channel 10 KHz -10 dB 1:06
Drum solo mono 120bpm 5:30
Drum solo stereo 120bpm 5:30

twoleftears's avatar
twoleftears
5,318 posts
 
I agree with @b_limo 's post back on page 1.  Many speakers today are designed with a tipped up treble aka too bright. In the showroom this comes across as loads of detail.  At home over the long term it becomes fatiguing.  It has to do with the choice of tweeter, the design of the crossover, and other factors.  Your space isn't helping but it's not the major culprit.  Echoing b_limo, when you find a speaker you really like it'll have a soft dome tweeter or possibly a beryllium implemented verrrry carefully.
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