Jazz for aficionados

**** Can any one tell me how swing sounds like "Bop"? ****

Sure. However, I think a better question is “how does Bop sound like Swing?”. A subtle, but important distinction. With respect, those are not particularly good examples to make the point. Prez playing a slow ballad and Bird playing a very fast tune clouds the issue. Perhaps they serve to skew the argument one way and not the other, but there are more “neutral” examples. Here is Prez and Bird both playing “Body and Soul”

https://youtu.be/tBfqqbm50uw

https://youtu.be/prbqc3C6968

Here is an even better comparison to your question. Prez and then Bird playing an up tempo Blues:

https://youtu.be/jeHkeoYNGgI

https://youtu.be/5pVxWdnInWY

How do they sound alike? Let’s put aside the obvious. Same instrumentation; although Prez is on tenor and Bird is on alto. Now, the less obvious:

Both tunes use the exact same “form”, the 12 measure Blues form. Prez plays it in a Swing style and Bird in a Bebop style. The even less obvious:

In keeping with the classic differences between the two styles, and following all that we know (should know) about the general trends (evolution) in Jazz, Bird’s improvisation is more adventurous in that he plays faster and much more “outside” the very simple harmony of the Blues form while Prez is a lot more conservative staying closer to home. Bird uses more and faster ornamentation and deviates much more from the melody of the tune. He also plays with a more aggressive tone. All hallmarks of Bebop. Many would say they are also hallmarks of the way society in general was moving: emphasis on faster and deviation from norms; but still within the same framework (form). To illustrate the evolution from one style to the next even more let’s go backwards in time.

Here is Louis Armstrong playing a Blues form; exact same 12 measure Blues form. He plays more simply and “inside” than even Prez. Also notice how from Louis to Prez to Bird there was a lineage in their respective swing feels; from a more square “swingy” feel to Bird’s more fluid swing.

Here’s a fascinating recording. “Cherokee” with Bird on tenor (!). Who does he sound a lot like? You guessed it, Prez.

https://youtu.be/60z6fRjjYPo

It’s all a continuum of influences from the past and, in the case of the greats, their own creativity moving the music to a new place. It is still going on today. We of an older generation, or those of us “old at heart” may not like the result; but, just look around at society today. It all sense to me.

Re Wynton and the supposed “Americanization” of Jazz. First, Jazz needs no “Americanization”. The melting pot concept goes to the very core of what America is about. No surprise, but that is the precise opposite of what his message is. He has far more integrity than some here are giving him. His message is, in fact, about acknowledging the greatness of the Afro-American contribution to the music; not to dilute it. Besides, as I said before, his ideas are nothing new. Musicians and musicologists have been pointing these things out for decades. Of course, there is always the proof of demonstrable examples of what has been talked about for anyone who is willing to see it and not let their cynicism and ego cloud their vision (ears).

Rok, you explained things better than I could have ever thought to explain them. Like you said, "You have to be born here to know the games that people play."

Now that you've explained everything, we can go on to the next thing.

Re Wynton and the supposed “Americanization” of Jazz. First, Jazz needs no “Americanization”.

I think I said Jazz was created by Black folks, the Most American of all people in this country.  What's this "Americanization".     Why would something created by Americans need to be "Americanized"?

The melting pot concept goes to the very core of what America is about.

The so-called melting pot was the melting of the various European Nationalities.  Did not apply to Racial minorities.   Had nothing to do with Black Folks.

His message is, in fact, about acknowledging the greatness of the Afro-American contribution to the music;

This is like "acknowledging" Beethoven's "contribution" to his Ninth Symphony.   DUH????   Their contribution is, they created the music.

Cheers

Let’s not forget "WHEN." We all get wrapped up with the why, where, how, who, But in history,  the ’WHEN’ is the most important consideration.

Cheers